Unable to take of in crosswind with the Cessna 172

[Cloudpiercing 65]

Would someone please try to make a take of from runway 17 at ESMS today? There's a crosswind there right now and I'm unable to to take of from that runway today after the SU10 update. There's not enough rudder authority. Even when appyling full left rudder the plane still drifts heavely to the right agains the wind to the grass!   I've tried to unplugg my TRp rudder pedals and all my joysticks and rebooted my computer and tried to stear the plan with just my keyboard but got the same result. It is a bug or is it someting wrong on my end? If i try to take of with no real wheather there's no problem to controll the aircraft on the runway with my Thrustmaster TPR rudder. I'll obvisly get that you have too aply rudder when taking of with crosswind, I've been simming since the 90's, but even with full ruder the plane immediately turns to to right.

 

[Bobsk8 12,754]

You left out the most important detail, what was the value of the crosswind component. ?

Edited October 2, 2022 by Bobsk8

[Farlis 2,288]

Currrently there should be no crosswing at all at ESMS. It's 14 knots headwind. If that were crosswind it would be just one knot below the Cessna's Maximum CW Component.

Edit: I just saw that you were trying to take off from RW17 instead of from 29. Why would you do that, if you could simply start into the wind?

Well that would give us 11knots of crosswind and 8 knots of Tailwind. That should be doable with the Cessna.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Farlis

[fakeflyer737 992]

18 minutes ago, Farlis said:

Currrently there should be no crosswing at all at ESMS. It's 14 knots headwind. If that were crosswind it would be just one knot below the Cessna's Maximum CW Component.

Edit: I just saw that you were trying to take off from RW17 instead of from 29. Why would you do that, if you could simply start into the wind?

Well that would give us 11knots of crosswind and 8 knots of Tailwind. That should be doable with the Cessna.

The 172 doesn't have a "Max CW Comp." 

 

It has a demonstrated comp. but thats about it. 

[Farlis 2,288]

49 minutes ago, Cloudpiercing said:

I'll obvisly get that you have too aply rudder when taking of with crosswind

Not only that, you also have to turn your ailerons into the wind.

[RaptyrOne 1,428]

Saw this the other day too. 12kt crosswind and with full left rudder and ailerons into the wind, could not maintain the centreline, drifted aggressively off to the right towards the edge of the runway. Only stayed on by adding significant left wheel brake. This was the default glass C172. I should have tried the same scenario with the much better WBSim steam gauge modded C172 but did not. Absolutely rubbish physics sometimes….

[Cloudpiercing 65]

42 minutes ago, Farlis said:

Not only that, you also have to turn your ailerons into the wind.

I obvisly turn my aileron, but what I' m trying to say here that's there something not right with that behavior.

[Farlis 2,288]

Yes, the lateral friction of tires on the ground is wrong in the sim. They are working on that. I don't know whether the fix for that is supposed to come with SU11 or SU12.

[jrw4 624]

The ground behavior is clearly in need of further attention, but in the meanwhile, I did test this behavior using the default glass 172. In crosswinds of up to 15 kts I was able to maintain reasonable lateral control by judicious application of throttle, starting with the aileron into the wind and gradually increasing throttle and rudder as speed picked up. I set the sensitivity of all flight controls to the default position, of course. The last thing one wants here is an extremity dead zone, for example. No doubt if I had done this IRL my flight instructor would have had a fit, but that happened often enough anyway, so it would have hardly mattered.

[jcomm 5,939]

SU11 or 12 will surely bring updated ground physics. It's worth waiting because in one of the Q&A Sébastien described a very intesting solution to be adopted.

[Moron 64]

The default Asobo 172 is completely uncontrollable in a significant crosswind component situation with gusting winds since the release of the SU10 update, yes.   Would everyone on here PLEASE stop telling this person that they are using the wrong technique or that his weather settings are wrong, etc.   This has been reported multiple times on the official Microsoft forum; it's Asobo's fault.   Whether or not they fix it remains to be seen.  

[Moron 64]

2 minutes ago, jcomm said:

SU11 or 12 will surely bring updated ground physics. It's worth waiting because in one of the Q&A Sébastien described a very intesting solution to be adopted.

Sure.   We'll patiently wait another 6 months to a year for Asobo to make their own aircraft flyable again, no problem.   Probably they should all take a nice long vacation first though, you know, rest up and all.   It's perfectly okay to break something via a mandatory update to the sim and then expect customers to just live with it until whenever.  

[LRBS 948]

2 hours ago, Cloudpiercing said:

Would someone please try to make a take of from runway 17 at ESMS today? There's a crosswind there right now and I'm unable to to take of from that runway today after the SU10 update. There's not enough rudder authority. Even when appyling full left rudder the plane still drifts heavely to the right agains the wind to the grass!   I've tried to unplugg my TRp rudder pedals and all my joysticks and rebooted my computer and tried to stear the plan with just my keyboard but got the same result. It is a bug or is it someting wrong on my end? If i try to take of with no real wheather there's no problem to controll the aircraft on the runway with my Thrustmaster TPR rudder. I'll obvisly get that you have too aply rudder when taking of with crosswind, I've been simming since the 90's, but even with full ruder the plane immediately turns to to right.

 

Perhaps you have a corrupted file or something went wrong with your calibration of the yokes, rudders, etc. There is a tutorial on youtube on how to calibrate correctly. Plugging/unplugging doesn't fix it if there is a situation of improper calibration. TPR software even is got many ways of adjusting different settings I find the windows calibration more stable, in my opinion. I might be wrong, but it works for me flawlessly.

 

I noticed sometimes that the flight controls calibration might change from time to time with ASOBO and actually, sometimes will ask if I want to load different previous states without any changes on my end.

 

I have two modified flight_model.cfg files that makes the 172 steam and glass gauges flying much nicer. Unfortunately, I can't attach the files here, you can send me a PM with an e-mail where I can send the files if you choose so.

 

As @Bobsk8   and  @fakeflyer737 mentioned, x-wind demonstrated of 15KTS should be observed, it's not mandatory but recommended.

[Bobsk8 12,754]

11 minutes ago, hobart escin said:

Sure.   We'll patiently wait another 6 months to a year for Asobo to make their own aircraft flyable again, no problem.   Probably they should all take a nice long vacation first though, you know, rest up and all.   It's perfectly okay to break something via a mandatory update to the sim and then expect customers to just live with it until whenever.  

You should change your screen name to Mr. Negative  🤪

[lwt1971 7,420]

See this thread: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/is-there-something-going-on-with-wind-or-runway-friction/545815/89

Basically the currently existing ground handling issues <=SU9 are more accentuated now with the re-addition of gusts in live weather.. MS/Asobo have introduced new flight model tuning parameters in SU10 for static ground friction, tire stickiness, etc but have *not* implemented those in their default aircraft yet. Also, the only 3rd party aircraft I know of to make use of these is the latest update of the Fenix A320. In above thread, there are some examples of folks modifying the flight_model.cfg of the default birds like C172. In any case, hopefully in SU11 MS/Asobo would've updated their default aircraft FMs for these and surely by then if not sooner all the noteable third party aircraft should be updated too.

Background details on the ground handling/physics issues which Asobo have discussed in their Q&As and their plans to rework/fix starting with SU10 (need to check if they actually updated the default Extra 330 as mentioned here): 

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-may-25th-2022/521293/2

Chat question – What are some improvements that are coming for ground friction and handling? - Timestamp 3

Seb – Four new parameters are coming in Sim Update 10. Two of them are going to give the possibility to eliminate or at least tune, but we decided to cancel it out on our plane where we tested it. Basically, an old feature that we kept from FSX. FSX was canceling out all crosswind below a certain speed. At 50 knots, you had 100% crosswind, and then it was fading out to 10 knots and then it was 0. The problem is, while you take off or land, the crosswind keeps changing. And it’s very unnatural. So this is something where, in the parameters for the plane you can say at what speeds you want this to happen. So on the Cessna 172, we’re testing this, so we basically canceled the effect completely. So you have a 100% crosswind even if you are parked, or if you go very slow. If there is a lot of wind, it can actually spin your plane around, at first. So that’s one of the new parameters.

Seb – And the other one, two parameters are there to allow you to control how sticky your wheels are when they are rolling fast. So when you are already going pretty fast in the takeoff, the sim was considering the wheels to be pretty much on rails as if there were slick tires from a Formula 1 car. Very sticky. And only the weight…so if you pull on the yoke, your plane gets a bit lighter. And the weight goes down, which reduces friction a little bit. But it’s still static. So it means that as long as you don’t push to the side strong enough, you’re still on rails. And so, there’s two parameters that allow you to make it so that the plane drifts off. The wheels are spinning so if you push to the side, it’s going to drift off a little bit, especially with plane tires that are not anything but racing tires. So we tested that with taildraggers. Taildraggers will always be hard to land and takeoff. But it’s a lot more natural and easy with that. So this is something we implemented on the Extra 330 for Sim Update 10. Also, plane makers have examples of how this works, so they can use it, too. We will deploy on more based on feedback. These four parameters are a first step on improving the ground handling. So more stuff will come afterwards. But Sim Update 10 is going to be these four.

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-march-2nd-2022/503504

Forum Community Question - Any update on the revamped ground physics handling/friction? In a past Q&A, we mentioned it had been done. Can you go into more detail and what’s coming up in the future?

Seb - ... 

But still, there is a deeper rework we need to do. Basically, it all comes from heavy simplifications that were in the sim 10-15 years ago, which were always assuming that the ground was flat. That’s why you couldn’t have sloped runways or undulated runways. The ground friction model…basically when something’s on the ground and when the brakes are fully engaged, you don’t move at all: The plane sticks to the ground. There’s what one could call infinite friction: There’s no movement at all. This is something we added that didn’t exist at all. And it wasn’t really needed 10 years ago because there were no slopes. When you put a plane on a flat terrain without wind, it’s not going to roll anywhere. But if you put that same system on a slope, it’s going to roll away and not stay there.

There’s also wind. Historically, in the sim, there was a system so that at low speeds, any crosswind was cancelled out. The plane ignores any form of wind, when you’re below, maybe 5-10 feet/second, which is why when you’re stopped on the ground, you go full propeller power and then there’s some propeller effects, so the plane starts going left. And then, all of a sudden, the wind kicks in, and then if you have a strong crosswind, it does this sort of thing which is not realistic. In reality, if I have a plane on the ground, and there’s a strong wind, and I release all brakes, it’s going to start moving: The wind is going to push it. And that currently does not happen. There are changes like that that we want to do. We want to do the ground friction model to make it 100% realistic. Which means that we don’t have to do anything: We don’t have to cancel it out anymore. Everything is going to be realistically simulated from when you stop to when you take off. There’s no such thing as crosswind that comes in over a few knots. I think it’s going to make the rudder a little easier. You’re just fighting one crosswind. It doesn’t change over time unless there’s gusts. Also, it’s going to work better on slopes. This rework is planned for somewhere this year, whenever we have time to go into that. It’s going to be compatible because the parameters are the same. It doesn’t change anything in the way you define or create or make airplanes. It just changes the way all the constraints and forces are sold so that the plane does what it’s supposed to do. All the constraints are the friction, the ground friction, the prop wash, the wind, even the engine, which is slightly shaking the plane. All these things come together. Currently, it’s a little bit better because we worked more in a bug fix development system, where we said, “The plane is sliding on the slope? Let’s fix that.” “The plane is sliding when there’s wind? Let’s fix that” Now we’re in a situation where we need to implement a real system instead of having a block of patches. That’s basically the next step, and that will give us much more realism the precise moment when you rotate.

For example, a wheel is currently simulated as a single point. So, a wheel can resist movement or rolling or sliding when you brake. It does not resist rotation. A wheel can rotate [with a rudder or tiller] without resistance. If you’re in your car and you’re parked, and you turn the steering wheel, if you don’t have power steering, it’s not easy to turn the tire because it’s not a point: It’s a flat surface. It’s a patch on the ground of rubber that you’re moving. The new simulation is going to allow this. This helps with stability when you’re taking off. Currently, the plane is just a tripod of points, and as soon as the nose is up, you feel that it’s already twisting because the wheels are not simulated as patches of rubber. They do not resist rotation enough. These kinds of changes are going to make the moments of takeoff a lot more precise and realistic. Later this year.