New Asobo Feature Discovery Series episode: Gliders

[lwt1971 7,419]

1 hour ago, jcomm said:

I mean that it calculates those "factors" based on Sun Radiation and Terrain Albedo, but, IRL you have also other important factors such as how cold the air aloft is, and it's variation with altitude / gradient. This allows for really great soaring days for instance in Spring or  Autumn when a cold front passes and your under the influence of  cold/unstable post-frontal air...

The Sun Radiation and Albedo of the terrain will be pretty much the same provided the same cloud cover but the colder air will benefit convection.

I don't think I've found any evidence of this being modelled in MFS. For sure it is not modelled in XP12 btw... Condorsoaring somehow models it ...

I haven't starting using the S11 beta yet and opting to wait till final release, have you been using the SU11 beta? From all what I'm reading on the MSFS forums thermals/convection are being simulated not just on sun radiation and terrain characteristics and the others listed in my prev post, but also air temperature and density all of which of course is based on altitude and rightly varies by that. See the "Aircraft Altitude" section in screenshot in my prev post and the air pressure/density/temperature/humidity/etc values listed.

From the official SU11 beta forums, the following impacts thermals and the rising/falling air (aka "atmospheric convection"):

• Position of the sun (Day of year, time of day, location)
• Temperature
• <both of above also are impacted by season obviously so soaring in autumn vs summer will be different>
• Wind speed
• Clouds
• Albedo (Colors) of the satellite imagery
• Trees
• Water
• Scenery
• Trees
• Terrain slope
   

The cool thing of course is that this atmospheric airflow and simulation of thermals and turbulence applies for all aircraft not just gliders (i.e. how turbulence is now a proper simulation deriving from airflow interactions).. in their first attempt at simulating realistic gliding MS/Asobo have made MSFS a better sim for all aircraft. In any case, if you're interested you can try out the soaring/gliding yourself once SU11 releases to see exactly what is being modeled vs not.


More background info from official forums thread:

The sim calculates the solar radiation in watts (factoring in clouds). It checks the albedo (colors) in the satellite imagery and uses them to determine how much the surface should be heated, which can result in rising air. Rising air is also created directly below clouds. That rising air is an input into the larger atmospheric flow CFD simulation, along with the wind, resulting in air that is moving in various directions, including being puilled downward. Everything in the scene affects the wind in the proximity airflow simulation: Terrain, buildings, trees, etc.

Updraft simulation

The updraft simulation simulates rising air - the results of which are fed into the atmospheric airflow simulation. The updraft simulation particles are created close to the ground based on the solar radiation simulation and clouds. Their velocity is based on the solar radiation simulation and wind speed, and their initial angle is based on the terrain. These particles are affected by the wind, but not the terrain or the scenery (after they are created). They rise on an angle relative to the terrain and are blown by the wind. The higher the wind, the less altitude the particle will gain before dying. Right now (SU11 Beta) there is a minimum wind speed of about 3 knots to get proper thermals.

Atmospheric airflow simulation

The atmospheric airflow simulation covers a large area around your plane and is affected by the DEM, live data, and updraft simulation. The upper-altitude of this simulation is the boundary layer. This simulation is always done a small distance above ground level and does not increase in altitude with your plane. Objects and trees do not affect this simulation. Since this simulation has long-lived particles, it can result in interesting behavior, such as tumbling air (rotor turbulence).

Proximity Airflow Simulation

The proximity airflow simulation covers a much smaller distance and the particles have a lower lifespan, but it updates much more frequently and is affected by just about every object in the scene ( including trees and buildings), as well as live data, at a resolution of about a foot. The atmospheric airflow simulation is an input for the proximity airflow simulation until the boundary layer, after which it is just the wind (live data) that affects the proximity airflow simulation.

Updraft simulation → Atmospheric airflow simulation → Proximity airflow simulation → Aircraft

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by lwt1971

[Waldo Pepper 1,953]

9 hours ago, MarcG said:

That does look cool, I've never thought about flying gliders before but will definitely give them a go when released.

Sim Soaring Club - https://discord.gg/sjewAKE2                      (SSC-Saturday always takes place at 17:00Z.)

GotGravel Soaring Club -  https://discord.gg/fgqqUPeY               (Typically Mondays and Fridays.)

Recommended mods : https://flightsim.to/file/14840/project-litfts-europe

Aircraft:

https://flightsim.to/file/15090/as-33-me

https://flightsim.to/file/25518/discus-2c-glider -  https://flightsim.to/product/discus-2c-premium

https://flightsim.to/file/30384/dg-flugzeugbau-dg-808s

I personally prefer the 808 for it's flaps.   Using flaps the DG can configure for a 50 to 1 sink rate and extract every ounce of lift,   then a split second latter it can transition to -9 degrees of flaps and haul butt at 170 mph.   It can do so in level flight,   with appropriate ridge lift.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Waldo Pepper

[ryanbatc 12,860]

Got Friends has indeed done a lovely freeware or payware Discus rendition.  I presume they'll adapt any needed changes for when the msfs native gliders show up.

They've never really fascinated me but I admit, knowing what MSFS will model, that I am now interested in what's to come.

It's especially odd when certain users proclaim how virtual flying isn't about scenery.  I'm a pilot irl and I do much of my flying for scenery.  Glider pilots irl would absolutely fly for scenery.  To have gliders natively supported is such a welcome for MSFS!

Edited October 28, 2022 by ryanbatc

[Tuskin38 6,532]

Yeah, it's called 'Flight Simulator' not 'Airline Only Flight Simulator'

Edited October 28, 2022 by Tuskin38

[Dermot McClusky 496]

28 minutes ago, ryanbatc said:

They've never really fascinated me but I admit, knowing what MSFS will model, that I am now interested in what's to come.

MSFS has had this effect on me for a number of things. I keep finding myself interested in stuff I'd never dreamt I'd be interested in. Gliders definitely fall in that category. 

[Vel 294]

Looking back to when I did some gliding, for me it was akin to driving an electric car... smooth and quiet but with underlying range anxiety! 😉

[Dermot McClusky 496]

I'm amazed by what can be done w/ unpowered flight. I was certified in paragliding many years ago (didn't end up continuing for a number of reasons), and the cross-country trips some of the veteran fliers would do were really impressive and quite intimidating to me as a novice.

There's a youtuber (name escapes me) from Utah who films his glider outings. He did a bucket list trip from northern Utah to the Grand Canyon and back. It amazes me that this kind of trip can be done without any engines. It was a great watch, and he was really emotional when he arrived at the Grand Canyon. 

I'll be curious to see how closely MSFS is able to model the conditions to allow for this kind of flight.

[lwt1971 7,419]

21 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

MSFS has had this effect on me for a number of things. I keep finding myself interested in stuff I'd never dreamt I'd be interested in. Gliders definitely fall in that category. 

Indeed, come SU11 I wanna get more into and learn more about both gliding and helis, both of which are a perfect fit for exploring MSFS's twin earth in new ways.  I also wonder if with powered ultra-light aircraft (like the Sting S4) when engine is cut out it could be made to function like a semi-glider if thermals are strong enough? The new turbulence simulation is definitely going to have an impact on powered birds ranging from GA to heavies, and thermals probably on very light GA.

Speaking of helis, the Feature Discovery episode dropping next week is on that. They revealed some details on how the helis and gliders are simulated a couple of months back (video below timestamped to begin where Seb starts to talk about this stuff).. helicopter physics being simulated include translational lift, ground effect, phase lag, ring vortex, rotor flapping, etc.
 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by lwt1971

[tweekz 2,165]

8 hours ago, omarsmak30 said:

Oh boy now I am hyped for gliders 😄 

Yeah, that was never really enjoyable in previous sims. But MS seems to do a lot to simulate that experience adequately. Together with the scenery that's promising.

[tweekz 2,165]

6 hours ago, Murmur said:

Well but it is. It has no real aviation dangers, inaccurate instrumentation, limited weather settings, no failures other than the engine, etc. Nothing wrong, it just has a different focus.

Well, for professional training there is professional software which does not primarily cater to home PCs, consoles or mobile devices.

If a home sim is also used in professional aviation it's edge cases and probably makes 0,01% of its use cases. That said, I think MSFS does the best job in the home-simulator market overall (simulation + graphics/scenery).

Edited October 28, 2022 by tweekz

[Bobsk8 12,753]

12 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

I'm amazed by what can be done w/ unpowered flight. I was certified in paragliding many years ago (didn't end up continuing for a number of reasons), and the cross-country trips some of the veteran fliers would do were really impressive and quite intimidating to me as a novice.

There's a youtuber (name escapes me) from Utah who films his glider outings. He did a bucket list trip from northern Utah to the Grand Canyon and back. It amazes me that this kind of trip can be done without any engines. It was a great watch, and he was really emotional when he arrived at the Grand Canyon. 

I'll be curious to see how closely MSFS is able to model the conditions to allow for this kind of flight.

If it doesn't have a motor, not for me...

[Dermot McClusky 496]

13 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

If it doesn't have a motor, not for me...

You could always stick your arms out the side and flap, too!

[Murmur 3,944]

 

4 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

Why don't you go play with your dated simulator, that despite being released in 2022, looks like it's from a decade ago?

I already do! Don't be so triggered mate.

 

4 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

Indicated altitude most certainly is affected by temperature. It was implemented in SU6 and refined in SU7, mainly by Matt of Working Title.

When I change the ground temperature in MSFS, the altimeter reading does not change (at altitude), so apparently pressure altitude is not simulated when using manual weather.

[lwt1971 7,419]

58 minutes ago, tweekz said:

If a home sim is also used in professional aviation it's edge cases and probably makes 0,01% of its use cases. That said, I think MSFS does the best job in the home-simulator market overall (simulation + graphics/scenery).

Agreed. Though the usual suspects like to focus on MSFS's default birds and then make it out like the whole sim is missing certain aspects of aviation (altho that's about to change in a big way with the ini A310 in the coming release).. with something like the Fenix A320 or Milviz C310 in MSFS I can get various sorts of failures simulation beyond just the engine, instrumentation/avionics as accurate as other sims if not better (certainly with the default G1000 Nxi way better than other sims in their default states), etc. And when it comes to weather and related settings no question MSFS provides a deeper simulation than anything else. Their talking points are bordering on comical now but yet they persist 🙂
 

Edited October 28, 2022 by lwt1971

[tweekz 2,165]

6 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

with something like the Fenix A320 or Milviz C310 in MSFS I can get various sorts of failures simulation beyond just the engine, instrumentation/avionics as accurate as other sims if not better

V1 (real world Airbus captain and streamer) just recently spoke highly of MSFS in regards to handling in gusty conditions being "just as he experiences it in real life".

I always liked MSFS CFD approach. It feels totally alive - sometimes a bit too much. 😄 In the beginning it was plagued by default aircraft configs and some model-shortcomings. Fortunately ASOBO never stopped improving and we are now in a spot, where it really pays off. The interaction with moving air masses feels more alive than in other sim IMO.