Re Gsync: when the Main Thread is the source....

[Cpt_Piett]

21 minutes ago, RJC68 said:

You should have stopped by for coffee lol

I am about 15 mins north west of YYZ, I go there regularly with a coffee and my scanner. I have the excellent FlyTampa CYYZ but it really taxes my system with traffic. I have even resized my FSLTL textures & Fenix liveries to 2K which helps, the only way I can get decent stutter free performance there with FSLTL is using the 30Hz, 30fps & Max Judder control on the TV methodology. Before I get yelled at for 30fps lol with the Samsung 4K TV I am testing on it actually works surprisingly well. The judder control really smooths out the panning at 30fps. Maybe the nextgen AMD 3D processors will help with performance at these big hubs.

Next time I'll stop for coffee - or a Newcastle Brown 🍻

Yah, I can't use real-time online like this. My CPU is clearly not up to the task. Almost in Boston now and I expect this to be even worse than YYZ. 

I might try out LG's TruMotion though. But as it's not available in game mode, I probably will have to choose between that and G-Sync...

Ok my FO just reminded me to get off Avsim as we're about to configure for an ILS 33L approach 😅 Wish my mainthread good luck!

[Ianrivaldosmith]

49 minutes ago, RJC68 said:

I had to put subtitles on for her even though her English is fantastic

My wife is Hungarian and is exactly the same! Subtitles all over tv. We’ve taught her Geordie, so we call her Hungario-Geordio. (In reference to the Harry Enfield character Julio-Geordio) 

[RJC68]

4 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Next time I'll stop for coffee - or a Newcastle Brown 🍻

Yah, I can't use real-time online like this. My CPU is clearly not up to the task. Almost in Boston now and I expect this to be even worse than YYZ. 

I might try out LG's TruMotion though. But as it's not available in game mode, I probably will have to choose between that and G-Sync...

Ok my FO just reminded me to get off Avsim as we're about to configure for an ILS 33L approach 😅 Wish my mainthread good luck!

It was the same on my X90J, If I chose VRR Game mode was automatically enabled and the picture controls were pretty limited. I am currently at FL370 over Zurich heading towards Zagreb in the Fenix and the clouds look magnificent today. Look at that frametime graph 🙂

 

[RJC68]

12 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

My wife is Hungarian and is exactly the same! Subtitles all over tv. We’ve taught her Geordie, so we call her Hungario-Geordio. (In reference to the Harry Enfield character Julio-Geordio) 

LOL That is pretty funny,

I'm thinking after Auf Wiedersehen Pet I'll giver her "Spender" to watch 

[Cpt_Piett]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Or pick a lightweight airport to fly out of and capture the first 15 minutes from gate to altitude or what have you.

Got it. Set low-latency ultra (usually have it off). I'll take the G36 Bonanza up for a quick spin from PAKT. Monitor refresh rate set to native 120Hz?

Then I'll probably do a full flight benchmark in the PMDG -700. 

EDIT: I did a quick benchmark after I parked the Fenix at Logan. 2 minutes - 1 minute external view then 1 minute cockpit view. And - model matching with real-time online traffic and FSLTL/AIG worked well this time. It's a hit and miss. 

PS: I cheated i.e. used frame generation. Not much stuttering and even the .2% low is >30fps. There's a fair bit of FTV though. Or poor frame time consistency. So probably not Noel-level Nirvana 🙂

[Noel]

6 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Got it. Set low-latency ultra (usually have it off). I'll take the G36 Bonanza up for a quick spin from PAKT. Monitor refresh rate set to native 120Hz?

Then I'll probably do a full flight benchmark in the PMDG -700. 

Awesome!  My posted results have pretty much from pushback to 15 minutes into a flight.   You might even dial back traffic for this test.

[Cpt_Piett]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Awesome!  My posted results have pretty much from pushback to 15 minutes into a flight.   You might even dial back traffic for this test.

Done with the benchmark. Northern Sky's PAKT. Orbx mesh Alaska. No AI aircraft or ships. 

Settings: SU11 4K DX12 TAA TLOD150 ULTRA

Situation: PAKT G36 Bonanza. Taxi from ramp then take-off. Live weather and time. 

I decided to capture a quick video of the takeoff. Only 3 mins or so, should be quick to upload. 

Very little frame time variability. ~98% <2ms. As for fps I would have thought it would be higher, considering there's not much load on the mainthread. And I'm a bit surprised the x%lows are not higher. Overall the fps graph looks wonky, not sure why...

I'll upload the video once 4K processing is finished. 

EDIT: Video is up: 

I recreated the scenario using the PMDG 737-700. 

Amazingly the average fps is 55 vs 51 with the Bonanza... Go figure. FTV is fairly similar. 

Video: 

Note: Something wonky with the aircraft configuration though as FDs did not display on the PFD. Also I could not activate CMD-A. Autothrottle was also all over the place. Because of that I ended the session early, but forgot to end the CFX benchmark. Just disregard to last minute or two. 

Just realized the average fps is not valid. Disregard. Can't be compared with the G36 session. 

[Cpt_Piett]

What I gather from these tests is that animation is smooth with G-Sync - but FTV might be a bit worse vs locked fps. And we're talking about less than 2 millisecond difference between frame times 97-98% of the time. Those are numbers in a benchmark though - the main thing is how the sim looks and feels. Which is why I included videos. 

What's more interesting to me is that frame time consistency is significantly worse using frame generation with the 4090. This could explain that the animation is not as smooth at low(ish) fps. I think. I would still choose 60fps at KBOS though with the full monty of addons vs. 30 fps without frame generation. 

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Very little frame time variability. ~98% <2ms.

I agree and it's definitely better than NVCP Adaptive Vsync, which didn't look quite as bad as the capture below displays.  Results are not as good as w/ RTSS w/ regard to FTV, but it's certainly close enough to warrant a trial run w/ a Gsync display.  Most attractive price-wise is the 38" Alienware, but this entails 25% more pixels and as my CPU is right on the edge now and that will likely push it over a cliff.  I have to guess 25% more pixels to prepare cost the CPU something significant.  There are 34" displays for more $$ so I may need to look at those as I don't want to do a CPU upgrade right now.

Now, if I could just figure out what to do with this very nice Dell 3415W 34" curved display!

NVCP's Adaptive Vsync at 1/2 refresh, which looks decent, but not like RTSS:

[Noel]

But this is truly the major component of a two-part Holy Grail:

The second part of this Holy Grail is that, but at say 60+FPS.   At that point there are no further performance benefits to be had, provided you can do that anywhere, in any plane and we're still a long ways from that.  I'm talking only about flat/curved screen MSFS not VR.  The fact that there is deterioration of FTV ("What's more interesting to me is that frame time consistency is significantly worse using frame generation with the 4090") makes frame generation a very much non-ideal solution for increasing frame rate.  Perhaps that might change w/ driver updates, or perhaps rates are inversely related to FTV:  the faster the frame rate, the less the variability is noticed by human perception (v CapFrameX), and I think that's highly plausible.

Thanks again I will have a look at 34" Gsync Ultimate displays.  In a nutshell, what is the diff between Ultimate and not Ultimate?  Def it's the Ultimate that cost a bunch more.

Here we go--looks like for motion Ultimate is not needed.  I've yet to hear a lot of good about HDR by MSFS users, but perhaps this is different?

Gaming Displays for All

 

G-SYNC ULTIMATE

Features the top NVIDIA G-SYNC processors to deliver the very best gaming experience, including lifelike HDR, stunning contrast, cinematic color, and ultra-low latency gameplay.

G-SYNC

Features a NVIDIA G-SYNC processor to deliver an amazing experience with no tearing, stuttering, or input lag. Enthusiasts and pro-level gamers can count on full variable refresh rate (VRR) range and variable overdrive for pristine image and outstanding gameplay.

G-SYNC Compatible

Doesn’t use NVIDIA processors, but have been validated by NVIDIA to give you a good, basic variable refresh rate (VRR) experience for tear-free, stutter-free gaming.

[Cpt_Piett]

12 minutes ago, Noel said:

The fact that there is deterioration of FTV ("What's more interesting to me is that frame time consistency is significantly worse using frame generation with the 4090") makes frame generation a very much non-ideal solution for increasing frame rate.

For you I might add 🙂 For me it's acceptable considering the fps is much higher in tight situations. For me the increased FTV is not a game-breaker in these situations. 

12 minutes ago, Noel said:

Thanks again I will have a look at 34" Gsync Ultimate displays.  In a nutshell, what is the diff between Ultimate and not Ultimate?  Def it's the Ultimate that cost a bunch more.

Probably Ian will chime in on this, but I found this from a Toms HW article: 

Quote

G-Sync Ultimate

A monitor's G-Sync also works with HDR content, but things will look better if that monitor has G-Sync Ultimate, formerly called G-Sync HDR (for HDR recommendations, check out our article on how to pick the best HDR monitor). 

Unlike regular G-Sync, Nvidia certifies G-Sync Ultimate displays for ultra-low latency, multi-zone backlights, DCI-P3 color gamut coverage, 1,000 nits max brightness with HDR video or games and to run at its highest refresh rate at its max resolution -- all thanks to "advanced" Nvidia G-Sync processors. Keep in mind these displays are typically BFGD (big format gaming displays) and, therefore, on the pricier end. 

[Noel]

2 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

For you 🙂

Nope, just describing ideal solutions--you who made that comment would certainly have loved to see no increase in FTV with frame generation, no?  Of course you would 😉

[Cpt_Piett]

15 minutes ago, Noel said:

Nope, just describing ideal solutions--you who made that comment would certainly have loved to see no increase in FTV with frame generation, no?  Of course you would 😉

If we reach this stage in the future - no increase in FTV, double the fps we have now and with no image distortions due to AI frame insertion - I'll probably spend a lot more time flying, and a lot less time tweaking 🙂

@Noel I added some info about G-Sync ultimate in the post above yours, not sure if you saw that. Not sure if Ultimate is worth the extra cost though. I guess it depends how important the added features are for you. My OLED panel's VRR is G-Sync compatible "only", meaning it's approved by nVidia, but it doesn't have the extra HDR certification. 

Quote

G-Sync Compatible

In 2019, Nvidia started testing and approving specific displays, including ones with other types of Adaptive-Sync technology, like FreeSync, to run G-Sync. These monitors are called G-Sync Compatible. Confirmed by our own testing, G-Sync Compatible displays can successfully run G-Sync with the proper driver and a few caveats even though they don't have the same chips as a G-Sync or G-Sync Ultimate display. 

Some things Nvidia confirms you can't do with G-Sync Compatible displays compared to regular G-Sync displays are ultra low motion blur, overclocking and variable overdrive. 

 

[Noel]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

If we reach this stage in the future - no increase in FTV, double the fps we have now and with no image distortions due to AI frame insertion - I'll probably spend a lot more time flying, and a lot less time tweaking 🙂

That is hilarious!  Only because flying was all I ever did for nearly 2 years, ecstatic that I no longer need to spend time troubleshooting and testing!  It's fun to do the troubleshooting especially when you can start drawing valid conclusions.  I think I learned a lot about this with the various threads I appreciate the dialogue.  You have to admit though:  we've come a very long ways even prior to your 4090 with enjoy fabulous performance.  As Gerard I think said it's the incessant addition of new and demanding content that drives this more than anything.  And that is why I maintain flying with a purpose helps keep you flying, instead troubleshooting.  APLv2 does this perfectly for me I very much appreciate it.  Prior to it was FSCaptain and I have sadly abandoned their beta effort at bringing into MSFS, which I strongly encouraged them to do.  Right now APLv2 w/ PACX covers what FSC did.  Flying when there are no consequences... will get you focusing on things other than flying.  RW pilots probably don't suffer from this like we do.

 

[Cpt_Piett]

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

It's fun to do the troubleshooting especially when you can start drawing valid conclusions.  I think I learned a lot about this with the various threads I appreciate the dialogue.

Absolutely! I don't mind the tweaking and troubleshooting most of the time. And I appreciate the discussions here on Avsim. I spend a bit of time over at the official forums as well, but usually topics are not discussed in as much depth. I guess a lot of people here are super-nerds, vs just regular nerds (and God forbid, gamers) over at the other forum, lol. 

Disclaimer: I write this with my tongue firmly in-cheek. If it's possible to put it like that.