Re Gsync: when the Main Thread is the source....

[Republic3D]

I have both G-Sync and V-Sync on, my monitor is an old G-Sync 3440x1440 100 Hz that I adjusted down to 90 Hz in the monitor settings.
I have zero tearing at any framerate. I've never seen my sim go below 25 FPS, usually it's at 45-90 Fps. 
Almost any framerate feels smooth.

Like Ian said, it's really something else that needs to be experienced. 
As long as you're buying a true G-Sync monitor, you'll be impressed at any framerate. 

For me, HAGS on, G-Sync on, V-Sync on, No limiter = Smooth and enjoyable. 

[Poppingcork]

3 minutes ago, Republic3D said:

I have both G-Sync and V-Sync on, my monitor is an old G-Sync 3440x1440 100 Hz that I adjusted down to 90 Hz in the monitor settings.
I have zero tearing at any framerate. I've never seen my sim go below 25 FPS, usually it's at 45-90 Fps. 
Almost any framerate feels smooth.

Like Ian said, it's really something else that needs to be experienced. 
As long as you're buying a true G-Sync monitor, you'll be impressed at any framerate. 

For me, HAGS on, G-Sync on, V-Sync on, No limiter = Smooth and enjoyable. 

HAGS?

[Ianrivaldosmith]

36 minutes ago, Noel said:

I'm completely convinced now what matters most is eliminating frametime variance, in terms of true smooth flight.

In your case, the benefit will be this - that 65fps is an average, but you'll get some frames across that interval that are 58fps, and some that are 78fps.

With vsync off, you'll get tearing. With vsync on, those odd frames below 60fps will cause the monitor to 'hang' on an image for two refreshes (it finishes being drawn midway through the second refresh, but has to wait for the next refresh to start before it can be drawn).
 

That will lead to a perceived 'stutter' - to your eye that frame will look like it was 30fps instead of 58, and that will break the perception of motion. A G-sync monitor won't hang like that.

Its the perception of motion that G-Sync gives us and provides SO well for a sim such as msfs. It’s why I an always advocate for g-sync. Especially g-sync ultimate. 

[Noel]

2 minutes ago, Republic3D said:

Like Ian said, it's really something else that needs to be experienced. 

And, until you've experienced zero FTV, it will be hard for to appreciate the ultra smooth animation, even at 30FPS:

 

[Ianrivaldosmith]

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

And, until you've experienced zero FTV, it will be hard for to appreciate the ultra smooth animation, even at 30FPS:

 

G-Sync gives you more than that. Trust me I’ve been in your shoes…. And until you try it, you can come back with a million charts and you still won’t have experienced the feel of motion we are talking about. I stress,  TRY IT! 
 

I am very susceptible to stuttering, and motion. One of the best things I ever did was go G-sync. 

[Cpt_Piett]

10 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Don’t set it for windowed mode, causes issues with other things. Just run MSFS in DX12 mode and make sure for full screen only. DX12 msfs uses DXGI flip model, so can handle it. 

Thanks, I didn't know that. I always thought it was necessary that way since MSFS runs in borderless windowed mode. DXGI flip model, never heard of that. Another term to come to terms with 😉

[Ianrivaldosmith]

Just now, Cpt_Piett said:

Thanks, I didn't know that. I always thought it was necessary that way since MSFS runs in borderless windowed mode. DXGI flip model, never heard of that. Another term to come to terms with 😉

If running in DX11, then yeah, or just use nvidia inspector to force it on in MSFS, rather than selecting windowed mode in the nvidia control panel. 
If you’re in DX12, then it’ll just work… 

DirectX12 games use new DXGI FLIP model which essentially has performance benefits of FSE and convenience of windowed mode. When game uses this new FLIP model GSync will activate in Borderless Windowed mode.

So in short yes, DX12 in Borderless Windowed mode will activate GSync even when Gsync is configured to work only for Fullscreen games.

[bobcat999]

I have learnt more in this thread than I did in my last year at school I think!

Just a note about HAGS mode for people with a Tobii 5 eye tracker - it warns you to turn HAGS mode off.  Do we really need HAGS mode on? 

I have never seen any performance increase, and most 'reviewers' and 'performance testers' say leave it off in MSFS.  

[Ianrivaldosmith]

2 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

Do we really need HAGS mode on? 

I believe it is needed for DLSS3 in SU11... More reason to stick with TrackIR for now 😛 

[Cpt_Piett]

IMO G-Sync and unlocked fps gives the most smooth and fluid animation. If @Noel prefer to lock fps to 30, I don't see the point in spending money on a G-Sync monitor. 

@Ianrivaldosmith I just set G-sync to windows only in NCP. It works.

6 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

I believe it is needed for DLSS3 in SU11... 

It is. Other than that I have not seen any benefit. It's recommended to be off with TDS GTNXi due to performance issues. 

 

[Noel]

38 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Its the perception of motion that G-Sync gives us and provides SO well for a sim such as msfs. It’s why I an always advocate for g-sync. Especially g-sync ultimate. 

So really, it's not so much about frame rate, as a lack of poor frame timing/intervals.  For going on 30y now I've used flight simulators.  Always have strived for smooth animation and always had decent smoothness after discovering Vsync many years ago in P3D.  It was just a week or two ago that for the very first time I experienced essentially zero frame time variance in MSFS.  This has created a level of smooth motion heretofore not experienced, even at 30FPS.   I would describe it literally as:  perfect

I'll never know if Gsync Ultimate compares with zero FTV w/o trying Gsync Ultimate, and unless you've personally experienced zero FTV even at 30FPS, you'll never believe it's possible.  If Gsync Ult compares--it won't be better, but if it's as good or close to zero FTV, I'll do it w/ the Alienware display I'm looking at now provided I can return it if it does not deliver.  And the reason is very obvious if you have followed my commentary on this:  the cost of zero FTV using RTSS w/ Front Edge Sync involves a tear line and there appears to be no way around this.

This is the screen I'm looking at:  

https://www.amazon.com/Alienware-AW3821DW-Curved-Gaming-Monitor/dp/B093T2NSD4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2V55MYNMB4HC9&keywords=AW3821DW&qid=1667922341&sprefix=aw3821dw%2Caps%2C556&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.4dd97f68-284f-40f5-a6f1-1e5b3de13370

I understand some argue using Vsync w/ Gsync is a good thing, is preferred.  Does Gsync Ultimate change this?

 

 

[bobcat999]

6 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

I believe it is needed for DLSS3 in SU11... More reason to stick with TrackIR for now 😛 

I believe you are right Ian.  Needed for the 4000 series with DLSSv3 and frame generation.

As I only have a 3080 and only running DLSSv2, I am sticking with HAGS = off, especially has Halloween has passed for this year now! 

Not sure what the issue is with the Tobii and HAGS.  I will investigate further. 

[Noel]

27 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

I have learnt more in this thread

Me too!

[Ianrivaldosmith]

38 minutes ago, Noel said:

I understand some argue using Vsync w/ Gsync is a good thing, is preferred.  Does Gsync Ultimate change this?

V-syc is literally only enabled in the Nvidia control panel just incase you exceed your monitors refresh rate, otherwise its G-Sync doing all the work. 

From Blur Busters:-

The answer is frametime variances.

“Frametime” denotes how long a single frame takes to render. “Framerate” is the totaled average of each frame’s render time within a one second period.

At 144Hz, a single frame takes 6.9ms to display (the number of which depends on the max refresh rate of the display, see here), so if the framerate is 144 per second, then the average frametime of 144 FPS is 6.9ms per frame.

In reality, however, frametime from frame to frame varies, so just because an average framerate of 144 per second has an average frametime of 6.9ms per frame, doesn’t mean all 144 of those frames in each second amount to an exact 6.9ms per; one frame could render in 10ms, the next could render in 6ms, but at the end of each second, enough will hit the 6.9ms render target to average 144 FPS per.

So what happens when just one of those 144 frames renders in, say, 6.8ms (146 FPS average) instead of 6.9ms (144 FPS average) at 144Hz? The affected frame becomes ready too early, and begins to scan itself into the current “scanout” cycle (the process that physically draws each frame, pixel by pixel, left to right, top to bottom on-screen) before the previous frame has a chance to fully display (a.k.a. tearing).

G-SYNC + V-SYNC “Off” allows these instances to occur, even within the G-SYNC range, whereas G-SYNC + V-SYNC “On” (what I call “frametime compensation” in this article) allows the module (with average framerates within the G-SYNC range) to time delivery of the affected frames to the start of the next scanout cycle, which lets the previous frame finish in the existing cycle, and thus prevents tearing in all instances.

And since G-SYNC + V-SYNC “On” only holds onto the affected frames for whatever time it takes the previous frame to complete its display, virtually no input lag is added; the only input lag advantage G-SYNC + V-SYNC “Off” has over G-SYNC + V-SYNC “On” is literally the tearing seen, nothing more.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

G-Sync gives you more than that. Trust me I’ve been in your shoes…. .... TRY IT! 
I am very susceptible to stuttering, and motion. One of the best things I ever did was go G-sync. 

I would definitely like to try it. But, as for trusting you or anyone espousing this, they would have to have personally tried a software method that creates zero FTV.  I have, and it creates perfect fluid motion.  You can't improve on perfect.   What Gsync might do for me is be comparable to the method I'm using now but be w/o the tear line, which are sufficient justifications to try it I feel.   As you know I'm not a hardware junkie at all, and I look very critically at value before making any hardware changes.  Most important of all to me is getting rid of stutters secondary to main thread and/or GPU overload.  Right now I won't run Bijans or REX Seasons because I carefully ascertained w/ my settings in MSFS, in the PMDG 738, they introduce subtle stutters, and me no likey any stutters, micro or otherwise and hallelujah, all microstutters have vanished into pure smooth motion...until I land at a complex terminal then it can be dicey if I didn't set TLOD low enough.  I'm super sensitive to stutters of any kind.