Comair Flight Crashes After Departing Lexington, Kentucky

[Dillon 2,197]

I just tried taxing and taking off this exact same runway in FS2k4 with the FeelThere CRJ. I can see how the pilot made this simple mistake but on the flip side I don't understand how the pilot didn't notice runway 22 lite up like a Christmas Tree right in front of him (once lined up for takeoff of course). You really can see the long length of runway 22's lights stretching way off to your left (what was reported for visibility yesterday???). When sitting on runway 26 it's not that small of a runway width wise in the CRJ but at 6am no lights on the runway (Centerline, etc) should have been obvious. I also fault the tower for clearing this flight for takeoff.Anyway I powered up and tried to take off only to find it was a no go until slightly past the end of the runway. I hit trees at the end of the runway but in true FS9 fashion I was able to eventually climb out...This was truly a very sad and senseless event...

[RFields5421 1]

Lexington's airport director says a repaving project a week before the fatal Comair crash altered the taxi route commercial planes take to get to the main runway, This was just put up on CNN - if anyone hears the taxi route the aircraft was given - I'd personally be interested in it.

[greggerm 312]

> I also fault the tower for clearing this flight for takeoff.With no ground traffic, no landing traffic, and air traffic already departed, the tower simply cleared the pilot to taxi to 22 and takeoff - a straight-shot clearance par for the course at quiet airfields. I believe the tower recordings indicate this was the case - as opposed to a taxi into position and hold, which would have required another call for the actual takeoff clearence. Since tower's job is mainly to keep airplanes from hitting each other, after clearing the CRJ for takeoff, the controller probably turned his attention to his radar in the terminal area, or calling approach control, having confidence that the pilot in the airplane below him can find his way to the appropriate runway and takeoff as they have done so many times before. That the pilot didn't use the proper runway and wasn't able to clear the trees doesn't rest on the controllers shoulders in any amount. In a preventable incident such as this, I don't think anything can excuse the error. There will be factors that contribute to it, such as pilot fatague, but to me nothing can actually excuse it. In all senses of the term, it was a tragic mistake by the pilots which will hopefully be used from this point forward in training as an example of the importance of situational awareness and pilot readiness. =--------------------------------------------------------------------=As far as the 75' vs. 150' width, the 75' width is simply the usable space designated as the runway 26. The actual concrete does extend the same width as the longer runway, 150'. (validated w/ google earth)=--------------------------------------------------------------------=May those lost in the crash rest peacefully, and may the survivor receive a full recovery and also find peace in his day, as I am sure that this incident will be a lifetime burden for him to carry.

[mgh 89]

I belive that the general speculation in this thread is becoming pointless.NSTB will investigate this tragic accident properly, and if it concludes human error was responsible it will look much deeper into what led to this human error. Human error is no longer a simple and acceptable answer.None of here know the details of communications between the aircrew and ATC, or of any other factors that may have affected the outcome.I think a respectful silence is more appropriate.

[aerdt 0]

This has nothing to do with the tragic loss of lives here. I am sure that everyone in here feels for the families who lost their loved ones here. It has absolutely nothing to do with being insensitive.This is a board for aviation enthousiasts and we're merely following the events and, yes, like the media we speculate about potential technical causes and human errors that lead to this accident. Much of the speculation in here has been proven quite accurate, even before the media has picked up on it.Pat

[btacon 1,806]

As a 15 year tower controller, I expect tower will take some of the blame in the final NTSB report. From the FAAH 7110.65 Air Traffic Control:http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/atc/Chp3/atc0301.html#3-1-73-1-7. POSITION DETERMINATION Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing taxi instructions or takeoff clearance. NOTE-The aircraft's position may be determined visually by the controller, by pilots, or through the use of the ASDE. Note the note. The towers reposibility is to validate the pilots are where they say they are, either with eyeball or ASDE. NEVER are they to accept the pilots word that they are "at the runway".This is not a new rule, but it is one that came about after a similar incidentbt

[Mace 1,927]

>Unfortunately taking off or landing on the wrong runway and>to some extremes the wrong airport happens quite often. Yes, I recall a few years ago, a commercial flight landed at Ellsworth Air Force base rather than Rapid City Regional Airport (KRAP).I don't recall all of the details but the two airports are fairly close together and similar in runway configuration...RhettAMD 3700+ powered by Gerbil wheel + gerbil, eVGA 7800GT 256, ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 gigs Corsair TWINX, blah blah, etc. etc.

[greggerm 312]

Well that's the first I've heard of that one - thanks! I thought the tower folks were a little more concerned with the relative locations of different airplanes, rather than keeping full tabs on all airport craft... especially on a slow Sunday morning. BT, does that rule apply to each stage of a departure? eg: If the tower cleared the airplane to the runway AND cleared them for takeoff in one swoop, does that violate the rule? The airplane in question was taxiing towards the runway 22/26 endpoints - is it fair to say that the tower did validate that the plane was heading to the proper location for takeoff? (Basically, is it kosher for the tower to clear the plane for takeoff well before they made it to either runway end?)-Greg

[paulyg123 135]

I am sure some of us tried this takeoff using the Wilco CRJ. At 50,000 lbs you just can't get up to 135 kts in 3500 ft. I suffered the same fate. One thing I hate about the CRJ's is they never show the runway on the moving map display as the Boeings do. This would have been a sure sign they were on the wrong runway.What a shame this happened.

[btacon 1,806]

Hi Greg...to answer your question on the "kosherness" of it all, that is where it gets gray.Could tower say, they observed the AC taxing to the active, and using "anticipated separation", they could clear the A/C for takeoff before it ever got to the Rwy? http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0309.html#3-9-53-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff roll.This would be a slippery slope though, and the tower would have to be able to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the tower believed the departure to be at the correct location/rwy. Tower tapes will be helpful here, as will ASDE tapes and TRACON's tapes if they have it.From my viewpoint, 6:00am on a Sunday morning, controller error probably was a factor. There was probably no other traffic to note, and the Sunday morning boredom is always a risk. I belive it has been reported that there was only one controller on duty at the time, which increases the risk of distraction and error. When you think about it, based upon the fact these were regional carriers at a small, simple airport, of course the pilot knew where the rwy was, reports even said the pilot stated he was using the "longer" rwy, except this time, he did not...and that is frequently the kind of chain of events at play in these obvious tragedies of human error.Also, remember at the end of the day, the POC is ultimately responsible for safety. Chances are the case will be made that ATC had a role, but the Pilot in Command is the individual who orders the throttles opened, and guides the A/C upwardsBelow is another link to the topic of Ground Movement. Perhaps it will shed some light on the complexities of ground movement of A/Chttp://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0307.htmlCheers,bt

[Guest Eek]

>I belive that the general speculation in this thread is>becoming pointless.>How about this bit of speculation from the news media?"The CRJ-50 had a full tank of jet fuel upon its departure for Atlanta."This one sentence paragraph came from the website of a Cincinnati TV station (also attributed to the AP). I doubt they would have had more than 1/3 capacity on a 50 mintue hop to ATL. Of course, it may just be sensationalism/embellishment, given the fact most of the people were burned to death, rather than died by smoke or injuries.If the media can make idiotic speculative statments like the above, then I see no harm in aviation enthusiasts like ourselves making educated guesses as to what happened.>NSTB will investigate this tragic accident properly, and if it>concludes human error was responsible it will look much deeper>into what led to this human error. Human error is no longer a>simple and acceptable answer.>Sadly, human error is likely the only answer. You can reduce the chances of human error, but not eliminate it entirely. Human error is a fact of life. You must accept it.>None of here know the details of communications between the>aircrew and ATC, or of any other factors that may have>affected the outcome.>>I think a respectful silence is more appropriate. > This is just a discussion between people with a keen interest in airplanes, not a lack of respect. The people who lost loved ones aren't likely to be reading Avsim, anyway. Burying our heads in the sand isn't going to change anything. This discussion is entirely appropriate. There's a lot of knowledge on these forums. Maybe, we can learn something from this?~EwingKATLMSI K8N Neo2 PlatinumAMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.0 GHz2GB Corsair PC-3200 512x4 Dual Channel CL2.5 DDR DIMM eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3Sound Blaster Audigy LSOCZ Powerstream 420WWinXPPro (SP1)

[KevinAu 441]

>Lexington's airport director says a repaving project a>week before the fatal Comair crash altered the taxi route>commercial planes take to get to the main runway, >>This was just put up on CNN - if anyone hears the taxi route>the aircraft was given - I'd personally be interested in it.I go to LEX fairly often, last time being the last day of July. Lexington has always been considered by us as an airport with a "gotcha," the north end where 26 and 22 are close together. The taxi route to 22 which those of us who have frequented that airport in the past are familiar with is to taxi north on A, cross Rwy 26, continue on A for several more meters to Rwy 22. Taxiway A ends there at 22. Ensuring that you do not inadvertantly cross 26 without clearance or line up on 26 instead of 22 is always at the forefront of our minds when departing that airport.When I saw the news helicopter video of the airport on Sunday, one thing popped out immediately to me. That end of the airport is no longer the same as it used to be. The very end of 22 has been repainted as an overrun area, which means it is not used to initiate takeoffs. The new route to 22 requires a hard left turn on 26 to join taxiway A5 towards the new end of 22. The old taxiway A familiar to pilots beyond 26 is no more.This change was made the week prior to the accident. This change is not depicted on the current Jeppeson airport diagrams of this airport that most airlines use. Changes like this often can take weeks to months to reach us.Because of these changes, it is very easy to think that you are on 22 when you are on 26 because when you reach 26, you are now at the end of taxiway A, which would have been an old cue to you that you are at 22.Also contrary to media reports, Runway 8-26 is lit, with Medium Intensity Runway Lighting and Runway End Identifier Lights. But even if the lights were off, in the half light of early morning, it would not particularly strike a pilot as a noticeable sign of something amiss.Another factor is that apparently, taxiway A5 was also renamed taxiway A with the repaving changes. This is most unfortunate, since though the route has changed, even a full route taxi instruction would not have been any different than prior to the change. Along with our inaccurate charts, and no mention of this change in the published notams, one would have to be quite on their toes to correctly find Rwy 22 at 6AM that morning.The ATC tower at Lexington is also quite "friendly." At an unbusy period such as 6AM in the morning, the tower will often give us a takeoff clearance while we are still taxiing around the terminal with some distance to go to the runway. Then it becomes a bit of a rush in the cockpit to get everything done and get out of there. Careless mistakes can often happen in a rushed cockpit.As for the comments of why even with a jumpseater, can a mistake like this be made, the answer is that the jumpseater was not in the cockpit. The flight was not completely full and had a few open seats in the cabin. The jumpseater would have taken a seat in the cabin, not the cockpit. There was only two pilots in the cockpit.The NTSB will most likely bear out as usual, a long chain of events and conditions involving many parties that contributed to the crash. All these things set those two up to lineup their plane on Rwy 26, and unfortunately, they failed at that last moment to glance at their heading indicator to catch that fact before they shoved the power levers forward.

[btacon 1,806]

Agreed...it is a long chain of events.bt

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>I am sure some of us tried this takeoff using the Wilco CRJ. >At 50,000 lbs you just can't get up to 135 kts in 3500 ft. I>suffered the same fate. One thing I hate about the CRJ's is>they never show the runway on the moving map display as the>Boeings do. This would have been a sure sign they were on the>wrong runway.>>What a shame this happened. the real CRJ does show a mini-runway if you zoom in to the 5nm range. the runway is about 3/4" long. i typically use this zoomed in for TCAS assistance out of ORD.

[btacon 1,806]

Agreed...those of us who have lived in this profession called aviation, will tell you...we survive on the bones of our brothers and sisters.And if you don't think so...you've never been in aviation.My 2 cents,bt