Would you ride in a driverless vehicle?

[HiFlyer 9,376]

7 hours ago, dmwalker said:

Autonomous vehicles driving from point A to point B is one thing but how would they ever find a parking spot downtown and would they be able to tell whether parking in that spot is allowed at that particular time of day? Also, how would they ever manage to negotiate a parking garage? Would parking have to be done manually by the driver?

 

 

 

[martin-w 3,262]

13 hours ago, birdguy said:

I could not.  I always found driving enjoyable whether it was my brothers TR4 years and years ago or the Air Force 5 Ton truck I drove from Denver to Boise and back every summer during our national guard encampment at Gowen Field.  Two of us in the weather flight would drive the 5 Ton and while I could have opted to fly up with the rest of the flight and let someone else drive I always opted to drive myself.

I always enjoyed driving.  The only thing I miss in modern automobiles is the manual transmission.  I'm sure they're available in some cars but I haven't seen them.

For me the very act of driving is recreational.  I don't want a computer taking that pleasure away from me.

I don't know where you're from goates, but I've lived in the desert and mountains most of my civilian life.  Mountain driving is a recreation in itself.

Noel

 

 

There seems to be some confusion here.

We are talking about two different modes of transport.

1. The cars you and me buy, private car sales, the cars we own. And there's no reason to suggest that the capability to manually control privately owned cars is going away. Manual mode will remain, just like it does in cars with semi-autonomous modes now. When Tesla, or any other company perfects autonomous mode, you will still be able to choose to engage that mode or drive manually. If you drive manually, the automation will be there in the background, and if you do something dumb while you are driving manually, save your life. Lots of people, like you Noel, enjoy manually driving a car, so manufactures aren't going to trash their sales by taking that capability away. 

2. The taxi companies (like Waymo) that provide fully autonomous Taxi's with no driver. Safer than a human driver (when perfected) and saves the company money because they don't have to employ a driver, plus the fact that the autonomous system will drive far more economically, and save energy, thus money, compared to a human driver. Whether that reduction in the workforce is right or wrong is a different discussion. 

The vast majority of cars on the road are in category 1 above. So your beloved manual mode isn't going away. Thus, nothing to complain about. 😀

Now if you want to leap forward way, way into the future, then anything is possible. Society will be completely different by then and perhaps with radically different priorities. 

 

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The only thing I miss in modern automobiles is the manual transmission.  I'm sure they're available in some cars but I haven't seen them.

 

Come to Europe or the UK. 70% of our cars are manual transmission. 80% of cars in Europe are manual transmission. Automatic transmission obsession seems to be a US thing. 

Duel clutch auto's are become popular now, a manual transmission that changes gear for you in just milliseconds. 

I can tell you, that having driven manual transmissions all my life and having had to deal with all manner of heavy clutches, and weird peddle placement, automatics are now far more appealing. 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by martin-w

[birdguy 3,958]

4 hours ago, martin-w said:

And there's no reason to suggest that the capability to manually control privately owned cars is going away.

In such a safety conscious society when self-driving vehicles become the norm it wouldn't be long before driving yourself becomes illegal.

I have not, and will not, join the ranks of those who are so enamored with technology, many times technology just for it's own sake, wants automation to do everything for us.  I think it takes a bit of humanity away from the individual.  I'm glad I won't be around to see it.

Noel

[birdguy 3,958]

4 hours ago, martin-w said:

(when perfected)

That's a key phrase.  You have to live through the phase of almost perfected to prefected (if that ever happens) while the bugs they never considered in the first place are being worked out.  Like the self driving feature of the Teslas today.  The rush to market (it's good enough now) will not go away and we become the ones who test it out.

Noel

Edited January 16, 2023 by birdguy

[birdguy 3,958]

13 hours ago, goates said:

Makes long road trips far less tiring.

Whenever I made long road trips I planned to make them longer by avoiding interstate highways.  I always preferred driving down secondary roads.  Better scenery.  Interesting small towns to drive through rather than by-pass.  Sometimes my route forced me to drive on controlled highways but only for short distances.

One thing the secondary roads have that interstate highways don't have are pulllouts with historical markers on them.  I like to stop and read them.  There's a lot of history there.  For instance, on Highway 380 a few miles east of San Antonio (NM) is sch a pullout that tells you the history of the first atomic bomb test just a few miles south of the pullout.

Noel  

[martin-w 3,262]

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

In such a safety conscious society when self-driving vehicles become the norm it wouldn't be long before driving yourself becomes illegal.

 

 

Safety isn't relevant Noel. Not relevant because while you are driving manually the automatic features are still ready to engage if you are in danger. So no reason at all to take away a manual mode. You get the pleasure of driving manually with the safety of an AI friend ready to protect you. 

 

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I have not, and will not, join the ranks of those who are so enamored with technology, many times technology just for it's own sake, wants automation to do everything for us.  I think it takes a bit of humanity away from the individual.  I'm glad I won't be around to see it.

 

As I've said before... its not a case of automation doing everything for you. You will still have the choice to do things yourself. 

[martin-w 3,262]

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

That's a key phrase.  You have to live through the phase of almost perfected to prefected (if that ever happens) while the bugs they never considered in the first place are being worked out.  Like the self driving feature of the Teslas today.  The rush to market (it's good enough now) will not go away and we become the ones who test it out.

Noel

 

I have had no experience of Tesla's or anyone's self driving mode, but from what I understand, its currently not full autonomy. Its semi-autonomous. drivers with that feature in their cars are informed that its not full autonomy, frequent contact with the steering wheel is required, and the system alerts the driver to take over if the conditions are beyond its capability. There is no "rushing to market". Its not at all like they are saying "yippee, give it a go, full autonomy, err... we think". Software updates appear frequently over the air, with new features. Drivers are informed of its capability.  If anything, they are being cautious with its implementation. They don't want a truck load of lawsuits to deal with so obviously they aren't risking lives with its implementation. Most accidents with autonomous mode in Tesla's are down to stupid people doing dumb things they were told not to do. 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by martin-w

[birdguy 3,958]

49 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Its semi-autonomous. drivers with that feature in their cars are informed that its not full autonomy

If it was not advertised why was a Tesla stopped police while the automobile was driving itself with the driver sitting in the back seat?  It's been implied here that some people are too stupid to drive themselves.  Then are these same people too stupid to read the instructions?

It's confusing.  Some people think self driving cars are just around the corner while others think there might never be self driving cars including Tesla.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-admits-its-cars-may-never-drive-themselves-despite-its-full-self-driving-mode/

Does anyone participating in this thread actually drive an EV or a car that is close to self driving?  I drive a Toyota Prius...a hybrid with lots of warning and braking features.  But that does not relieve me of the responsibility of looking behind and both ways when backing out of my carport into the street.  In the supermarket parking lot my rear sensors pick up pedestrians walking behind my car and it beeps.  But I have always spotted them coming before I hear the beeps.  I have not let myself become dependent on them.

I watch TV commercials of trucks where the driver and passengers are all clapping their hands while the truck drives itself and even passes another vehicle.  So the implication is self driving cars or trucks are now available.

What would you do if you sitting in a self driving vehicle and another self driving vehicle has run amuck and is speeding right toward you?

I think the term self driving is a misnomer and perhaps the words assisted driver or co-pilot would be more appropriate.

And when that driver I see clapping his hands in the self driving truck is riding along and because the computer is driving his truck he allows his mind to wander and does not have his full attention to emergencies what happens?

One thing I would like to add.  My wife is a terrible driver.  Her mind wanders and she has no situational awareness.  She had two reportable accidents in a year which is why my insurance rates are so high.  The second accident I was riding with her because she was driving me home from cataract surgery.

She was stopped at a stop sign.  The cross street was a thru street and had not stop sign.  She pulled out right in front of an oncoming car and we were T-Bones.  Luckily there were no injuries but her Dodge was totaled.

Even if that car she pulled out in front of had all the safety bells and whistles or was a self driving vehicle it could not have possible stopped in time from hitting us.  The driver that hit us didn't have a chance.

Noel

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by birdguy

[goates 576]

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

I have had no experience of Tesla's or anyone's self driving mode, but from what I understand, its currently not full autonomy. Its semi-autonomous. drivers with that feature in their cars are informed that its not full autonomy, frequent contact with the steering wheel is required, and the system alerts the driver to take over if the conditions are beyond its capability. There is no "rushing to market". Its not at all like they are saying "yippee, give it a go, full autonomy, err... we think". Software updates appear frequently over the air, with new features. Drivers are informed of its capability.  If anything, they are being cautious with its implementation. They don't want a truck load of lawsuits to deal with so obviously they aren't risking lives with its implementation. Most accidents with autonomous mode in Tesla's are down to stupid people doing dumb things they were told not to do. 

I wouldn't be so sure about Tesla being cautious. Far too many drivers are under the impression that they are good enough to drive autonomously, with a major factor almost certainly being Tesla calling the latest update "Full-Self-Driving", among other comments. The fine print probably says it shouldn't be treated as fully autonomous, but the marketing and impression people have doesn't seem to match.

https://gizmodo.com/tesla-driverless-elon-musk-cadillac-super-cruise-1849642407

[goates 576]

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

What would you do if you sitting in a self driving vehicle and another self driving vehicle has run amuck and is speeding right toward you?

Hard to know as the situation would be dependent on the details. Your car could well detect an impending collision and get you out of the way. Or maybe nothing could be done and the other car still hits you. I wouldn't expect autonomous cars to be 100% safe, just much better than people overall.

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

And when that driver I see clapping his hands in the self driving truck is riding along and because the computer is driving his truck he allows his mind to wander and does not have his full attention to emergencies what happens?

Again, the details would matter. The autonomous system may be able to avoid whatever emergency is happening. If the problem is a fault in the tuck itself, double or triple-redundancy system designs could allow the truck to stop and shut itself down. On the other hand, drivers right now have trouble staying focused, with sometimes disastrous results. So again, I wouldn't expect perfection, just better than people. Humans really didn't evolve to operate vehicles flying down freeways at 100+ km/h.

[birdguy 3,958]

45 minutes ago, goates said:

Humans really didn't evolve to operate vehicles flying down freeways at 100+ km/h.

Humans really didn't evolve to fly airplanes either.  Or to jump out of airplanes and sky dive.  Or to sail yachts around the world.  Or to do a thousand things we do every day.  But we did evolve to learn.

Noel

 

[dave2013 1,151]

14 hours ago, martin-w said:

80% of cars in Europe are manual transmission. Automatic transmission obsession seems to be a US thing. 

There are manual transmission vehicles in the USA, just fewer of them than in Europe.  I learned to drive a manual transmission in an old truck on a friend's farm.

I believe that they are used more in Europe because 1)they get better gas mileage than automatics, and 2)they cost less.

My wife drove a manual for 12 years before coming to the USA, and at first she criticized them, but eventually agreed that they are easier to drive.

Dave

Edited January 17, 2023 by dave2013

[martin-w 3,262]

15 hours ago, goates said:

I wouldn't be so sure about Tesla being cautious. Far too many drivers are under the impression that they are good enough to drive autonomously, with a major factor almost certainly being Tesla calling the latest update "Full-Self-Driving", among other comments. The fine print probably says it shouldn't be treated as fully autonomous, but the marketing and impression people have doesn't seem to match.

https://gizmodo.com/tesla-driverless-elon-musk-cadillac-super-cruise-1849642407

 

From Tesla's website...

 

 

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Capability.

"Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. While these features are designed to become more capable over time, the currently enabled features do not make the vehicle autonomous."

 

 

 

It's quite clear in the text. Hand on the wheel and be prepared to take over. Also says these features do not make the vehicle autonomous. Maybe they should change the name if it foxes the idiots. 

Which marketing, other than the name, is misleading? Musk once claimed that level 5 was just around the corner, which was clearly in error, but I've not heard of anything else.

 

I understood that when you engage Full Self Driving it warns you on the screen to hold the wheel and be prepared to take over, I may have got that wrong.

Edited January 17, 2023 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,262]

10 hours ago, dave2013 said:

 

My wife drove a manual for 12 years before coming to the USA, and at first she criticized them, but eventually agreed that they are easier to drive.

Dave

 

I'm very surprised you would say that Dave. Driving an automatic is easy, just an accelerator and brake. Much easier than dealing with an extra clutch pedal. Which is why, in the UK, if you pass your test in an automatic you aren't allowed to drive a manual. Whereas if you pass in a manual you can drive either. Unless I've misunderstood?

I had a Volvo for 6 months, automatic. So easy to drive. Also drove a Vauxhall Insignia CVT automatic hire car, that was a piece of cake to drive, so much so that I considered buying one.

Edited January 17, 2023 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,262]

16 hours ago, birdguy said:

If it was not advertised why was a Tesla stopped police while the automobile was driving itself with the driver sitting in the back seat?  

 

 

Because there are plenty of morons in the world. 

 

 

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It's confusing.  Some people think self driving cars are just around the corner while others think there might never be self driving cars including Tesla.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-admits-its-cars-may-never-drive-themselves-despite-its-full-self-driving-mode/

Does anyone participating in this thread actually drive an EV or a car that is close to self driving?  I drive a Toyota Prius...a hybrid with lots of warning and braking features.  But that does not relieve me of the responsibility of looking behind and both ways when backing out of my carport into the street.  In the supermarket parking lot my rear sensors pick up pedestrians walking behind my car and it beeps.  But I have always spotted them coming before I hear the beeps.  I have not let myself become dependent on them.

I watch TV commercials of trucks where the driver and passengers are all clapping their hands while the truck drives itself and even passes another vehicle.  So the implication is self driving cars or trucks are now available.

 

 

They are available in terms of Taxi's. See the Waymo videos. Whether they should be yet is another question. 

 

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What would you do if you sitting in a self driving vehicle and another self driving vehicle has run amuck and is speeding right toward you?

 

 

In a world where the majority of cars have a perfected, or high functioning, autonomous mode that should be an incredibly rare occurrence. Compare that to today, with thousands of people being killed and maimed on our roads due to human error.

 

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One thing I would like to add.  My wife is a terrible driver.  Her mind wanders and she has no situational awareness.  She had two reportable accidents in a year which is why my insurance rates are so high.  The second accident I was riding with her because she was driving me home from cataract surgery.

She was stopped at a stop sign.  The cross street was a thru street and had not stop sign.  She pulled out right in front of an oncoming car and we were T-Bones.  Luckily there were no injuries but her Dodge was totaled.

Even if that car she pulled out in front of had all the safety bells and whistles or was a self driving vehicle it could not have possible stopped in time from hitting us.  The driver that hit us didn't have a chance.

Noel

 

 

You should be in favor of an autonomous mode in all vehicles then. Because if that mode had been available in the car your wife was driving, then it would have taken over and prevented the accident. Hence... why I'm bemused that you seem to be against this.