10 hours ago, dave2013 said:

 

I believe that they are used more in Europe because 1)they get better gas mileage than automatics, and 2)they cost less.

 

You could be right, but my understanding was that since maybe 2000 or so automatics have actually become more fuel efficient than sticks. But I have no data on that. For me driving on a windy mountain road shifting gears up and down manually is fun, even if it's in a bit of a lemon, or maybe especially then, since one might be less worried. But like 99.9% of the time, city traffic etc. automatic is way better.

My vision was everyone has self driving cars. It's good for people who have lost their licenses due to medical reasons. All the cars communicate with one another, sort of like TCAS. But say you want to drive from Pasadena to Disneyland to pick up your kids. Under ideal circumstances, say at 3 am it takes maybe an hour. Moderate circumstances maybe two hours, and then anywhere up to four hours. You're sitting in your car in Pasadena and tell the KITT like computer, take me to Disneyland. He says sure Michael, we have a slot for departure in 27 minutes, so just sit tight, but I expect it'll be smooth sailing after that, expected average speed of 23 miles per hour to provide for adequate spacing. As you sit there waiting to depart you realize some people bought the premium app that allows them to get to their destination more quickly, and others found out hacks to circumvent the delays, maybe stealthily posing as emergency vehicles. You miss the days where you drove yourself, sometimes speeding, other times slamming on the brakes and joining the chaotic stop and go.

5 minutes ago, Antipodeslonghaul said:

You could be right, but my understanding was that since maybe 2000 or so automatics have actually become more fuel efficient than sticks. But I have no data on that. For me driving on a windy mountain road shifting gears up and down manually is fun, even if it's in a bit of a lemon, or maybe especially then, since one might be less worried. But like 99.9% of the time, city traffic etc. automatic is way better.

 

Greater upfront cost, automatic transmission is more expensive than manual, greater fuel consumption, more complex, more to go wrong, more expensive servicing.

Having said that, duel clutch automatics are now becoming more popular. CVT transmissions and torque convertors seem to be less of an option from manufacturers these days.

660,000 BEV's on UK roads now, and of course they have no gear box. 

2 hours ago, Antipodeslonghaul said:

My vision was everyone has self driving cars. 

One aspect of driverless cars we haven't discussed is affordability.

My Prius has all the bells and whistles plus a HUD so I can see selected displays projected onto the windshield.  The cost was almost twice as much the price we paid for the same year Camry for my wife.

The full self driving mode for a Tesla adds 15,000 dollars to the price of the car.

The sticker price for an affordable new Toyota Corrola today is 20,262 dollars.  Add self driving and the price jumps to over 35,000 dollars.

If everyone has to drive (a misnomer because you are not driving) a self driving car a lot of lower income people are going to be left without personal transportation.  Unless operator driven cars are still allowed.  Which puts the accident prone drivers you would prefer to put in driverless cars still on the road.

Noel

 

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

Hence... why I'm bemused that you seem to be against this. 

I am not against driverless cars FOR THOSE WHO WANT ONE.  I am opposed to driverless cars for everyone.  Yes, a driverless car is what I would want for my wife.  But I don't want to be forced to have one.  I want to drive myself.  And knowing how governments and activist groups wheedle their way into our lives they would soon outlaw cars you drive yourself.  They would take away my choice.

 

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

You should be in favor of an autonomous mode in all vehicles then.

The key words in your phrase are 'in all vehicles'.

A driverless car is what I would want for my wife.  But I don't want one.  I want to drive myself.  And knowing how governments and activist groups wheedle their way into our lives they would soon outlaw cars you drive yourself.  They would take away my choice.  And I suspect you would be in favor of that.

I installed seatbelts in my cars before they became mandatory.  Now every car MUST be equipped with seatbelts.  And if you are seen driving without your seatbelt fastened you are cited.  I can see the same thing happening with self driving cars.

But driverless cars are not accident free.  They are still subject to mechanical failure.  The brakes go out or tires blow out or the steering mechanism malfunctions.  And electronic component failures or, as someone mentioned before, hackers going after the controls that make the cars driverless.

Let me have the car I want, not the car you want me to have.

Noel

 

54 minutes ago, birdguy said:

One aspect of driverless cars we haven't discussed is affordability.

My Prius has all the bells and whistles plus a HUD so I can see selected displays projected onto the windshield.  The cost was almost twice as much the price we paid for the same year Camry for my wife.

The full self driving mode for a Tesla adds 15,000 dollars to the price of the car.

The sticker price for an affordable new Toyota Corrola today is 20,262 dollars.  Add self driving and the price jumps to over 35,000 dollars.

If everyone has to drive (a misnomer because you are not driving) a self driving car a lot of lower income people are going to be left without personal transportation.  Unless operator driven cars are still allowed.  Which puts the accident prone drivers you would prefer to put in driverless cars still on the road.

Noel

 

 

All new, advanced technology is expensive when it first arrives Noel. I remember when ABS was a fancy new feature, and traction control an expensive addition. These days all cars have both features. Same for electronic fuel injection, now ail cars have it.

The additional cost is to be expected for a technology that is still very new and under development. Don't forget, what we are talking about is a very revolutionary technology, we can't expect it to be free, or dirt cheap. It will be more affordable in time, like all technology. 

 

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by martin-w

17 minutes ago, birdguy said:

If everyone has to drive (a misnomer because you are not driving) a self driving car a lot of lower income people are going to be left without personal transportation.  Unless operator driven cars are still allowed.  Which puts the accident prone drivers you would prefer to put in driverless cars still on the road.

Noel

 

I hear you. Even what nowadays might be considered cheap, say $8000 for a used car that still runs, then insurance, high gas prices, maintenance etc. It's certainly not cheap, vs. I was recently spending on average roughly $4 day using public transportation and very occasionally Grab which is like Uber in Kuala Lumpur. So if I had continued to do that for a year, about $1460 per year if I did the same thing every day. Not sure if they have additional discounts for monthly or annual ridership, but it seemed cheap and convenient for me just using an easy stored value card. BTW quite a few driverless trains there, were a lot of fun if one could get a seat way up in front or the back. In other cities public transportation is probably more expensive, it also depends on how much it's subsidized, but for me personally, I prefer it, also prefer walking or cycling, over driving. But in many cities driving might be the only realistic option getting to and from work.

My vision was one of chaos the more of a mix we get on the roads of classic human driven cars vs. computer driven ones, but that wouldn't necessarily be the case, just how I pictured that it might be. Driverless car sharing cars, or basically driverless Ubers or taxis might also become a thing, but I also can't see how it would really be affordable or solve our commuting problems, also considering that in most cities a huge number of people still need to get from A to B all around the same time every morning and every afternoon. It's not good if people have to spend huge chunks, 1/3 or more of their income just on transportation costs.

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

My Prius has all the bells and whistles plus a HUD so I can see selected displays projected onto the windshield.  The cost was almost twice as much the price we paid for the same year Camry for my wife.

I think you might be misplacing the cost difference between the Prius, a hybrid with two powertrains, and the Camry. The safety bells and whistles and HUD likely aren't the major difference in price. And as others mentioned, prices for new technologies often start high, and then come down. Even more important is the availability of second hand cars.

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

I'm very surprised you would say that Dave. Driving an automatic is easy, just an accelerator and brake.

I think you misunderstood.

My wife had only ever driven manual shift cars, and when when got over here she at first found it awkward driving an automatic.  She criticized the fact that almost everyone here drove an automatic.  Once she got used to it, though, she realized that driving an automatic is easier.

I don't miss sitting in traffic on a steep hill with a stick shift, but they are more fun to drive overall.

Dave

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by dave2013

16 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I don't miss sitting in traffic on a steep hill with a stick shift,

Heh-heh-heh.  After I got out of the Marine Corps and got a car of my own I cut my teeth driving a stick shift on the hills of San Francisco.  An excellent training ground for driving with a stick shift.  Calls for some fancy footwork.

Noel

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by birdguy

That makes more sense.

Just worked on this, not sure if it was mentioned in the thread.  We have automation tests in vehicles in excess of 250kph...  

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/internet-of-things/indy-autonomous-challenge.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/moorinsights/2022/11/18/cisco-flexes-its-iot-muscle-at-the-indy-autonomous-challenge/?sh=1f6094a57c1c

The technology is getting there quicker than we think.  Automated Vehicle Guidance is much more relevant than just cars on the road.  Manufacturing is a great example of an industry leading AV adoption... Just did a sight in Ireland where no employee will be shuttled around the campus by a driven vehicles by next year.  All automated electric vehicles with offshore wind to power the charging so they can be self sufficient and off grid.  We also delivered high speed internet over 50km with no fiber and no degradation to support the project.

We are also how most people maintain internet while barreling down a railroad at over 125 MPH without even thinking about the fact their connection remains seamless through all of those hops...  Cool stuff.  

 

22 hours ago, birdguy said:

An excellent training ground for driving with a stick shift.  Calls for some fancy footwork.

 

How's this for fancy footwork Noel... 😀 Note the left foot braking and "heel and toe" technique where the toe is on brake and heel on the accelertaor

Don't try that at home folks. Only for the track.

 

Edited January 18, 20233 yr by martin-w

18 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

How's this for fancy footwork Noel... 😀 Note the left foot braking and "heel and toe" technique where the toe is on brake and heel on the accelertaor

Don't try that at home folks. Only for the track.

 

Sadly, a manual in racing is becoming far less common anymore.  The race gearboxes are SOOOO good at this point that even the paddles can become redundant as the cars computer knows what gear to be in before you can even grab the paddle...  I let mine do it's thing in all but 1 or two corners where I may want to hold a gear or drop a gear but other than that it could be up to a couple of seconds a lap difference in a clutch and manual gearbox vs a clutchless paddle setup... 

 

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

Don't try that at home folks. Only for the track.

And the hills of San Francisco.

Noel