Navigraph doing away with Navdata only subscriptions

[Bobsk8 12,777]

Just now, Orlaam said:

Well that's pretty crappy.  Many users don't need their charts. 😐  It will be a bad business decision, but I have a feeling they adjusted their chart pricing to recoup the losses.

I think that many users don't bother with the charts, and it is costing them a great deal of money to provide them, so they are going to try and force people to subscribe to the charts. 

[GCBraun 2,392]

The Ultimate subscription also includes WX, VFR/IFR maps, flight planning, tracking and other neat functionalities that are built into a very nice looking App. All that plus charts and navdata costing about 2 beers a month sounds like a pretty good deal to me. 

[vgbaron 3,687]

I happen to really like Charts. I use it now as my main flightplanner. If you have a second monitor it's exceptional, a bit tougher if only using one. The moving map and the chart overlays including airport diagrams make any flight a snap.

To me, it's well worth it.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,999]

As a long time user of PFPX that allows me to plan my flights for a 737 and the Lear 25. With TOPCAT it calculates V1, Vr and V2 for full or derated takeoff.

Additionally PFPX allows me to create flight plans for Concorde setting each waypoint as I see fit. The resultant plan can be exported to P3D which is read by Active Sky, another compatible plan is exported to Aivlasoft EFB where I add the SID and STAR. That plan is then saved and used for Radar Contact.

I can adjust the fuel burn in PFPX for my aircraft meaning calculated fuel is very accurate.

My Navigraph FMS Data subscription is all I need to keep PFPX, PMDG737 and EFB up to date. For under €30 per annum it’s a cost effective solution.

[tup61 1,584]

12 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

My Navigraph FMS Data subscription is all I need to keep PFPX, PMDG737 and EFB up to date. For under €30 per annum it’s a cost effective solution.

It's a pity though the monthly subscription is gone completely... I am not sure why you want to keep things up to date because once (in your case) PFPX, PMDG737 and EFB are in sync they will work together perfectly. In P3D the navdata won't change so... that's a perfectly working combination and hence no need to update the navdata monthly... is there?

I myself am CERTAINLY not getting the Ultimate subscription anymore (no need for charts) but I am even in doubt about the navdata only subscription... I was planning to buy a one month subscription and keep on using that indefinitely but this option doesn't exist anymore. I of course still have that Ultimate suscbription right now and when that ends I might keep on using the AIRAC that's active at that time indefinitely. If I make a backup on the Navigraph folders inside the MSFS community folder I might even keep on using that AIRAC after a reinstall on for instance a new computer! Because in the end... why would you want to be up to date all the time? (Only problem might be that MSFS actually does change over time and so an old AIRAC may get out of sync with runways etc. P3D doesn't have that problem.)

Does anyone actually know what we are paying for every month? How often does navdata actually change? And why would you want navdata to change all the time once everything you have is in sync?

BTW Under €30 per annum is indeed not to bad but for me it will be €36,05. That's €20% increase... and where is it going to end. Ah well, I will probably give in at a certain moment because it's not too much (like I think the Ultimate does cost too much) but still... I don't like subscriptions...

EDIT
Oh, and btw, about that price increase: apart from everything costing more every day, Navigraph also owns SimBrief which they upgraded recently... for free... guess who is paying for that... 😉 Free isn't always actually free.

Edited March 8, 2023 by tup61

[Ray Proudfoot 8,999]

6 minutes ago, tup61 said:

It's a pity though the monthly subscription is gone completely... I am not sure why you want to keep things up to date because once (in your case) PFPX, PMDG737 and EFB are in sync they will work together perfectly. In P3D the navdata won't change so... that's a perfectly working combination and hence no need to update the navdata monthly... is there?

Real world data changes. Aivlasoft updates their own data such as runway designations, VORs disappearing etc. Over time the data will become less accurate. P3D data has to match what is stored in EFB.

For example LPPT changed 03/21 to 02/20. The corresponding SIDs and STARs are linked to those runways. If you didn’t keep the data up to date you wouldn’t be able to use those for the runway.

[tup61 1,584]

14 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Real world data changes. Aivlasoft updates their own data

Aaaaah, got it. Yes, then you indeed need regular AIRAC updates. I asked on the Aivlasoft forum if a Navigraph subscription was mandatory in order to fully use their EFB and didn't get a single reply. But apparently it is. Bob always used to post he didn't need Navigraph Ultimate because he used Aivlasoft EFB and hence he was done with a one time payment: seems that's not entirely the full truth. But let's not start a discussion about the EFB over here. 😉

And btw I thought the P3D data was set in stone and never changed...?

Anyway, the LPPT change is a good example of what may change over time and so yes, I guess we do actually need monthly updates of AIRACs. My little problem is that I like to use SimBrief (it's so simple and quick!). If I stop using Navigraph data and return to using the (also regularly updated) default Navblue navdata in MSFS it would be okay for all the planes I fly, the scenery, whatever, but only SB might not be in sync... And while for instance LNM is a great tool (and can work with Navblue data) it's not such a quick planner as SB is.

Come to think of it... I might keep on using SB (with an old AIRAC) and then import the plan into LNM to see where things aren't in sync: I can then fix that easily after which I can load the fixed plan into MSFS... Oh, wait, I also use FSHud which has a great SB-import function...

Okay, well, sorry for thinking out loud over here! I will have to give this some more thought LOL I suppose 36 bucks a year isn't too bad after all and it saves me a lot of headache... 😉

Edited March 8, 2023 by tup61

[Ray Proudfoot 8,999]

@tup61, Aivlasoft will provide an AIRAC set of data just to get the application useable. Thereafter it’s down to the user how often he wants to update it. I see €30 / year as reasonable considering the cost of my computer and the aircraft I fly.

P3D core data as supplied is fixed but there’s a very clever chap who provides a free service to update it each AIRAC cycle. I update using this. https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

That’s for FSX / P3D only I’m afraid. I don’t know how the core data in MSFS is handled.

[tup61 1,584]

30 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@tup61, Aivlasoft will provide an AIRAC set of data just to get the application useable. Thereafter it’s down to the user how often he wants to update it. I see €30 / year as reasonable considering the cost of my computer and the aircraft I fly.

P3D core data as supplied is fixed but there’s a very clever chap who provides a free service to update it each AIRAC cycle. I update using this. https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

That’s for FSX / P3D only I’m afraid. I don’t know how the core data in MSFS is handled.

Aero.sors... yes, right, I do remember something about that site from my FSX/P3D days... I think it was a bit complicated to install way back then: seems easy to do now! Nice option to have!

The core data of MSFS is handled by Asobo/MS and updated regularly (afaik monthly) for (totally) free. Which is why I am in doubt to pay for Navigraph because I only need it for SB... And even then I do wonder how much difference there will be between the default (Navblue) data and the Navigraph data. Just a while ago I flew with default Navblue data for a week while still using SimBrief for my plans: I didn't encounter a single problem. But that probably was because both were pretty up to date. I guess that after a year or so, when the SB AIRAC has become a year old (without subscription) the differences with the default Navblue data may become more apparent. Which is why a one month sub for 10 bucks (once a year or so) sounds like a nice option. But well, that option is gone. Ah well, as said I probably will end up with a data only sub just to be done with it. I am getting tired of all things thinking about navdata LOL

[stephendoc 30]

Hi,

Lots of factual incorrectness in this thread. The monthly (Unlimited) subscription is not going away. There has never been a monthly navigation data-only subscription. 

But most relevant to this thread - the yearly navigation data subscription is not going away. It will renew for current subscribers. We are not promoting it on our website to new subscribers as it is causing lots of confusion and support cases where users who actually want the charts app get only the navigation data. But you can still get this subscription if you'd like, on the account dashboard. We have acknowledged that the renewal pricing info is not shown to current navigation data subscribers, so we will update the my account pages to reflect that.

So all in all - there has been no change in what subscriptions we offer. There was a change in pricing last year, up 9% for Unlimited and 15% for Navigation data. Pricing did not change in the last 5 years, while we have continuously developed our apps and added many new features, plus data support for new products and simulators without raising prices in these years. In addition, our data license costs have increased. So this has changed, and as mentioned there has been a change in which subscriptions are promoted on the pricing page. But other than that, no material change in the subscriptions.

I hope this offers some clarification.

Stephen
Navigraph

Edited March 8, 2023 by stephendoc

[Ray Proudfoot 8,999]

Hi Stephen,

22 minutes ago, stephendoc said:

the yearly navigation data subscription is not going away. It will renew for current subscribers. We are not promoting it on our website to new subscribers as it is causing lots of confusion and support cases where users who actually want the charts app get only the navigation data. But you can still get this subscription if you'd like, on the account dashboard. We have acknowledged that the renewal pricing info is not shown to current navigation data subscribers, so we will update the my account pages to reflect that.

If a visitor to your site doesn't have an account the Nav Data option won't be visible to them. Why not just show it alongside the Unlimited so there's no confusion as to what is available?

All this confusion has come about because Navigraph promote only one option and the FMS Data option is buried inside a User Account. It needs to be prominent on the main page. If users have bought the wrong package that could be because the website didn't make things clear enough.

[Luis Hernandez 575]

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

P3D core data as supplied is fixed but there’s a very clever chap who provides a free service to update it each AIRAC cycle. I update using this. https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

How do you do so for V5, Ray? I only see it compatible with anything until V4.

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I don’t know how the core data in MSFS is handled.

I only paid a monthly Ultimate subscription once, and among the update options, there was one for MSFS. Since I stopped flying online 16 years ago, I'm not worried about having the latest data. Someone with more knowledge can correct me.

2 hours ago, stephendoc said:

So all in all - there has been no change in what subscriptions we offer.

Thanks for your reply, Stephen. Now everything is more clear.

2 hours ago, stephendoc said:

There has never been a monthly navigation data-only subscription. 

Too bad. While for some countries €9 a month is nothing, for others (where wages may be less than a third of that), it may be too much, and this could be an option to consider.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,999]

7 minutes ago, Luis Hernandez said:

How do you do so for V5, Ray? I only see it compatible with anything until V4.

It’s by request only. Send an email to the supplier and he’ll provide a link which should not be shared. He has his reasons for doing this so I don’t question why.

[tup61 1,584]

2 hours ago, stephendoc said:

Lots of factual incorrectness in this thread. The monthly (Unlimited) subscription is not going away. There has never been a monthly navigation data-only subscription. 

Ah, okay, I think the confusion came from people buying a one month subscription (unlimited) only just for the navdata. They got the charts too for a month but weren't interested in them. By doing this you would get an AIRAC for around 10 bucks which you then could use 'forever'. So you can still do that: it will save you around 26 euro (the price for a full year of navdata only updates). This option was posted a few times over here as if it was a navdata only option but though it was USED that way it wasn't actually a navadata only purchase. I hope that's clear now for everyone. I honestly thought there had been a navdata only option as a one time purchase too but that clearly was a mistake.

Anyway, as Ray posted, a lot of confusion could have been prevented by clear (better) communicatiion. Instead of hiding the navdata-only option you should have made the difference between the two options more clear so that it is impossible to not know what you are getting or not. Doesn't seem too complicated, I think. You talk about the two options 'causing lots of confusion and support cases' but that can ONLY be the case if the information and communication isn't clear. Apparantly that was the case. And it certainly didn't get better by removing one of the two options altogether... 😉 I mean, even a current ultimate customer can't see that navdata option at all and that's quite odd to say the least imho.

Of course it's your business and you may run it as you see fit. 😉

37 minutes ago, Luis Hernandez said:

I only paid a monthly Ultimate subscription once, and among the update options, there was one for MSFS. Since I stopped flying online 16 years ago, I'm not worried about having the latest data. Someone with more knowledge can correct me.

Having the latest data has nothing to do with playing online or not. (Although that may come into play.) The main point of having the latest data is that all your addons are using the same navdata. If you use SimBrief with an old AIRAC and then load the plan into the MSFS G3000 (as an example) it may not work because they are using different navdata. And you may run into yet other problems if you try to load that plan into an addon airplane. I am also not really interested in having the latest data but I am certainly 100% interested in having everything (the sim, the planes, the apps, whatever) on the same level, using the same AIRAC.

40 minutes ago, Luis Hernandez said:

Too bad. While for some countries €9 a month is nothing, for others (where wages may be less than a third of that), it may be too much, and this could be an option to consider.

Well, you CAN buy a subscription for one month and then cancel it. You will be able to use the AIRAC you installed forever and ever (well, so to speak). If Navigraph had to create a navdata only subscription for a month it would have to cost something like 3 bucks... hardly worth their trouble to make that happen. You can also buy a month subscription twice a year: then you would still save a little bit of money but be quite up to date (because so much doesn't change in half a year).

[Luis Hernandez 575]

That's what I did, @tup61: I paid a month and updated all my addons, Simbrief included. All my 5 sims (from FS9 to MSFS) are now stuck in AIRAC 2209, but all addons have the same navdata. After two or three more airliners for MSFS, I may get another month.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Luis Hernandez