Hello, just giving you a shout that I as a fan of an old era aircraft I am closely watching this space.

Some time ago, I googled a bit trying to find databases of VORs / NDBs as they existed in the past (like 70s or 80s) but did not really find any. So perhaps the 2006 FSX database is the best option.

Good luck!

20 hours ago, ark said:

Here is an approach based on a NDB/DME that is supported by MSFS. You tune in the NDB on 220KHz and the DME on 108.8 MHz.

 

Sorry for the delayed response.

Yes, thank you for the example of an NDB-DME. Apparently, the sim supports it as follows (apparently NOT with a specific flag in the databse):

The HLE DME-component shows up as a VOR record but with a flag that classifies it as DME-Only. There is no explicit linkage to an NDB record.

The NDB component shows up as an NDB record in the same file. However, again, there is no explicit linkage to a DME. The only way to infer that it is an NDB-DME is via a match between the ICAO Call-sign/ICAO-Region pair. Apparently, the SIM (Nor does my software output) do this.

The MSFS World Map shows HLE as a DME-only. If you click on the navaid, it does not refer to the NDB component.

The FSX database records contain the exact same support for this as MSFS and Navigraph.

Thanks again.

30 minutes ago, dontsink said:

Yes, thank you for the example of an NDB-DME. Apparently, the sim supports it as follows (apparently NOT with a specific flag in the databse):

I don't know the details of how the NDB-DME is represented in the database, but when I look on LIttleNap Map, which uses the MSFS database, the navaid symbol seems to be that of a NDB-DME (NDB in a box).

Al

19 hours ago, Bad_T said:

ok this is going to be the most boring post of the entire forum 🙃 ... but if you follow step by step you should get the same result as i did. I also attached a little ZIP file containing the full projet so you can see all files are done, there is nothing else than what is inside the zip so by checking the files, comparing them with the original sample, and reading below you should be able to figure it out.

Very important note, as stated before, i'm not a scenery creator and my knowledge is very limited, i just did this by googling around, it might not be the accurate way to do it 🙊

 

Wow, thank you so much for the very detailed response and the contribution of an example. You must have spent a bit of time on it.

The SDK apparently created a mini version of the NVX06020.bgl file but containing only one VOR record. Apparently, the SDK created FRZ as a DME-Only station where FSX shows it as a VOR-DME. Did you do something explicitly to cause it to be a DME-only? Interestingly, FSX shows a slightly different latitude/longitude...  I assume yours is from some website showing this navaid? Of course, the elevation is different..... as is the range and magnetic deviation. I suppose all this would need to be transferred from the actual FSX record.

I have never used the SDK, nor have I had the time to come up on its learning curve. Your post gives me a great head-start. This looks like a sure alternative to the .bgl overlay approach should it not work . To create an addon this way for a large number of Navaids looks like it would take a lot of work, or a bit of Python to automate the building of the xml files. Alternatively, the FSX .bgl files already contain all of the details on each Navaid so it would only be a matter of hand-creating the support .json files by hand. (I think......    (I hope.....)).

At any rate, I will try to do the hand-built addon later today if I get the time.

Thanks again for your effort and your help.

22 minutes ago, ark said:

I don't know the details of how the NDB-DME is represented in the database, but when I look on LIttleNap Map, which uses the MSFS database, the navaid symbol seems to be that of a NDB-DME (NDB in a box).

Al

The Sim's World Map shows it as an NDB symbol, and when you click on it, it shows it as a DME with the DME frequency displayed (not the NDB frequency).

Maybe LittleNav Map does a match between the Call-Signs to infer it, or maybe, a match between lat/long. Either way, as long as my overlay presents the same format and the same flags to the map application as NavBlue/Navigraph does, there should be no problem. In the case of HLE, the FSX database also shows the VOR-component as a DME-Only. So an overlaid file should not change the behaviour for HLE. I would guess that in many cases, I will be reverting NDB-DMEs back to VOR-DME. In this case the Sim should then behave accordingly. 

Well, it works. I am able to copy FSX NVX......bgl files into an addon package folder, then hand-build my layout.son file and my manifest.json file to specify the overlaying files.

I then place this package into the Community folder.

I bring up MSFS, and sure enough, it recognizes this as a new addon.

If I go to the World Map, I can find all of the "old" navaids that did not exist in the NavBlu world for the grid-square that the FSX folders cover. There are caveats:

Any Navaids that were covered by the NavBlue file that were not in FSX for that grid square are now invisible.

The other caveat is that it does not work without temporarily removing Navigraph. I will look for a way around this next. Bad_T accomplished it at the SDK level with his Content.xml file.

The results will vary depending on the region that you want to restore 2006 navaids. If you want older NDB's, you will get plenty. For example, for the U.S, NavBlue-2304  has 864, Navigraph-2305 has 507, while FSX has 1696. For Southern Europe, NavBlue has 566 NDBs, Navigraph has 470 NDB's and FSX has 848. Most regions will gain many more NDBs than exist today.

In terms of VORs, for the U.S. NavBlu has 1032, Navigraph 1036, and FSX has 1086. For Europe, FSX has approx 15% LESS VOR's, however FSX recovers many VOR's that no longer exist.

For Australia FSX recovers approx 50% more than the present VOR complement. For China, Russia, the Far East, and Africa, FSX lacks considerably compared with the newer databases.

If anyone is interested in pursuing this, or in seeing more detailed data, please let me know.

For now, I will be making use of the FSX navaids whenever I encounter an old flight plan which leaves too many VOR/NDB gaps to execute without GPS. I will first check  whether the FSX files will solve the problem. If so, I will package up the applicable file(s) and create a temporary addon package for the Community folder.

 

 

Are there any aircraft with the old LF radio ranges?

4 hours ago, DaveH said:

Are there any aircraft with the old LF radio ranges?

I think the Boeing 247 (by Wing42?) on MSFS may use it.

From my memory, Early Lockheed L1011's had Omega Nav system installed, which I think was a LF, system but different to the 247 type of LF nav.

Of course there would have to be LF range stations in the Asobo radio nav data, so I just must be dreaming.

Dave

 

5 hours ago, DaveH said:

Of course there would have to be LF range stations in the Asobo radio nav data, so I just must be dreaming.

Dave

 

https://flightsim.to/file/21201/radio-range-navigation

Check that out.

It's the same database that the 247D uses.  I fly it on all my 1930s flights with the Redwing 1935 airports.

 

Thanks.  Just what I was looking for.

Dave

Edited June 16, 20232 yr by DaveH
spelling

On 6/13/2023 at 12:17 AM, dontsink said:

If anyone is interested in pursuing this, or in seeing more detailed data, please let me know.

With every MSFS nav update more radio stations are disappearing. Older aircraft, even from the earlier jet age rely mostly on VOR and NDB stations so it would be great if we could have an addon that adds these legacy radio stations to MSFS.
 

On 6/13/2023 at 12:17 AM, dontsink said:

Any Navaids that were covered by the NavBlue file that were not in FSX for that grid square are now invisible.

It is probably a lot of work to re-integrate those, especially since that database keeps changing with every update. A static snapshot with all the FSX navaids would not be too bad I think, especially since we can easily turn it on/off depending on the aircraft we fly.

I may be able to help with the information of old VOR and NDB frequencies and locations as well as old, published routes as I have two large, spiral, wire bound books from DESKTOP WINGS published in 1998. One is titled AVIATION TOPOGRAPHIC ATLAS, and has all the published World Aeronautical Charts (WAC's) for the lower 48 US States, Baja Mexico, and the Bahasa Islands. The other is titled IFR AERONAUTICAL CHARTS and has all the LOW ALTITUDE ENROUTE CHARTS for the lower 48 US States. They both cover the lower 48 US States plus Baja and the Bahamas. They are 10" X 10".  They are very detailed reproductions of all charts in use of that date and show all navigation aids. They also have many of the country's larger airports in larger formats on single pages. There NO Approach Plates, however.  So, for example, you want to know if there was an NDB at or near a specified city, I can look it up and give you a location and the frequency that it was. It would be an interesting project to undertake.

On 1/18/2024 at 1:01 PM, Stratocruiser1 said:

I may be able to help with the information of old VOR and NDB frequencies and locations as well as old, published routes as I have two large, spiral, wire bound books from DESKTOP WINGS published in 1998. One is titled AVIATION TOPOGRAPHIC ATLAS, and has all the published World Aeronautical Charts (WAC's) for the lower 48 US States, Baja Mexico, and the Bahasa Islands. The other is titled IFR AERONAUTICAL CHARTS and has all the LOW ALTITUDE ENROUTE CHARTS for the lower 48 US States. They both cover the lower 48 US States plus Baja and the Bahamas. They are 10" X 10".  They are very detailed reproductions of all charts in use of that date and show all navigation aids. They also have many of the country's larger airports in larger formats on single pages. There NO Approach Plates, however.  So, for example, you want to know if there was an NDB at or near a specified city, I can look it up and give you a location and the frequency that it was. It would be an interesting project to undertake.

In addition to my post above, I fly with DC3virtual airways  www,dc3airways.net and we have some old routes and info there too.