Hello to all. New to this forum and to FS2020. I have been a user of MS Flight simulator (FSnnnn) since the beginning, and a user of X-Plane as well for several years now.

After having used FS2020 for a brief time, (along with the excellent Flysimware Cessna 414), I have decided that it must become my preferred sim for most flying.

However, I have developed a concern regarding the unavailability of many radio navaids that exist in the older sims, presumably due to de-commissioning and the fact that MSFS uses dynamic updating to the latest AIRAC cycles.

I now have 3 sims on my computer: FSX, X-Plane, and MSFS. One of the things I have enjoyed the most over the years is learning and flying historic airliners. On FSX, I fly the Captain Sim 707 and 727, as well as the A2A constellation. On X-plane, I fly the 747-200, 737-200, and an excellent freeware DC-3.

For FS2020, my sites are therefore set on the PMDG DC-6, and the Boeing 247d by wing42. But I do not wish to be forced to fly these airplanes with GPS. I want to fly them as they were flown in their day. (And as I learned to fly in the 60's). It appears that in many cases, due to the depletion of radio navaids, for many routes, it will be impossible to navigate using VOR or NDB without filling gaps using GPS. I do not have this problem with FSX, as the Nav database goes back to 2006. Nor with X-Plane, as the Nav database is comprised of text-files which can easily be edited to add any needed nav aids.

I decided to make an attempt to alleviate this problem for my own use of FS2020.
First I decided to do an analysis of the three databases: MSFS/NavBlue Airac 2304 (latest on my machine), Navigraph AIRAC 2305-R1 (for MSFS) and FSX (files dated 2006). I excluded X plane because of the much different file format.

To this end, I wrote software which extracts the appropriate .bgl files and analyzes them in terms of VOR, NDB, and ILS counts, and then computes a tally for each bgl file, each ICAO region and each ICAO country code while comparing the 3 databases.

The results were rather surprising (to me). I believe my plan will work after seeing the resultls. If there is interest by anyone in continuing this thread, I will be happy to post my findings in more detail in a subsequent post.

My end goal is to determine whether I can borrow NVXnnn.bgl files from FSX to package-up as overlays in the Community folder to fill gaps when I need particular VORs or NDBs to achieve a flight plan without using RNAV. I do not wish to mess with airport files or ILS's. Presumably, these are not suffering from de-commissioning attrition.

My next step is to take an old flight plan, specifically Sion to Florence which I cannot use in FS2020 because of the missing FRZ VOR. And to then create an overlay package by hand (addon) to place in the community folder to overlay the newer NVXnnn.bgl file in the sim's database with the corresponding one from FSX. I will determine the feasibility of doing this. If anyone has any input on this, please, would love to read here.

One thing I did find, is that the current (according to Wiki on fsdeveloper.com site) .bgl format does not support NDB-DME. I have read that many VOR-DME are being converted to NDB-DME. If my information is incomplete, and the file format does indeed support this, please let me know.

Your thoughts and/or criticism are welcome. I should probably post this on the flightsimulator.com forum as well?

Well, you could always use a Litton INS in the 707/727/747 to fill in the missing navaid gaps and still stay somewhat old-school.

ILS de-commissioning is indeed a thing, with LPV and LNAV/VNAV GPS-based approaches popping up all over the map to take the place of more and more Cat I ILS approaches. 

I think the biggest problem with this project is going to be the lack of available maps current in whatever epoch you choose to use.

 

@dontsink The extinction-level radio navaid has crossed my mind too, regarding historic aircraft.  In the context of the soon to be released JustFlight Fokker28, I figure it doesn't have an INS fitted and will likely be a radio navaid airplane (unless you want to use a GPS in one, but I agree with you, I'd rather not do that). For all I know the early ones may have been exactly VOR/NDB nav'ers in real life being regional jets.

Your idea sounds like a great one and I can't imagine any showstoppers to it.  I wonder if duplicated navaids would cause any problem?

@Bob Scott is there a Litton INS for MSFS that you know of?  I've found great enjoyment of the INS in the DC-8 using P3D but...wasn't aware of any for MSFS.

1 hour ago, Mace said:

@Bob Scott is there a Litton INS for MSFS that you know of?  I've found great enjoyment of the INS in the DC-8 using P3D but...wasn't aware of any for MSFS.

Not yet that I know of...but then again there isn't a 707, 727, or 747-200 in MSFS, either.

1 hour ago, Mace said:

is there a Litton INS for MSFS that you know of?  I've found great enjoyment of the INS in the DC-8 using P3D but...wasn't aware of any for MSFS.

https://www.justflight.com/product/sim-skunk-works-lockheed-martin-tf-104g-msfs

36 minutes ago, Alvega said:

https://www.justflight.com/product/sim-skunk-works-lockheed-martin-tf-104g-msfs

Well, I mean an INS that is like the real INS -- that you can program from the airplane.  The SSW one requires you to edit a text file with your waypoints. 

2 minutes ago, Mace said:

Well, I mean an INS that is like the real INS -- that you can program from the airplane.  The SSW one requires you to edit a text file with your waypoints. 

Oh, ok. Guess that one doesn't exist yet.

Now for those who want real world old navigation, for longer ocean crossings install a sextant mount & shoot the stars as they did in the pre mid sixties. Doppler nav was also popular until INS became available. In most 707's the INS installation was not approved for primary navigation (but it was used for that but not coupled to the autopilot. 

In my 707 days,( it was a long haul airline with ocean crossings), the crew had a navigator. Doppler nav was later fitted but relied on the accuracy of the onboard compass system to a level that the compass system was never designed for.

I spent a lot of time tweaking compass systems to keep the doppler nav system accurate. How to do it was in your head, not in a Manul.

Those were the good old days.  

 

Excellent post & thread !

There used to be addons for FSX that reverted the nav databases in the BGL files to past / historic "ages" as well as the scenery and AI aircraft. Those addons allowed for an experience of flying over the old continents, mostly in Europe and USA.

That would be a great addon for MFS or any other present sim.

I still recall the first RNAV equipped aircraft where there was still no GPS reference but rather "simple" triangulation based on radio navaids to define "virtual" points in a route based on radial interceptions or radial + DME....

There were also astro-based tools but that's a bit more difficult because of the simplistic way most general purpose flightsim represent the "skies" and the firmament 🙂

5 hours ago, trainnut said:

Doppler nav was later fitted but relied on the accuracy of the onboard compass system to a level that the compass system was never designed for.

Particularly true in high latitudes where the vertical component of the magnetic field becomes much stronger and the horizontal component, which compasses rely on, becomes much weaker.

To be pedantic, the doppler itself is not affected by the compass system, but the doppler output is fed to a GPI unit (ground position indicator) which is affected. The GPI is set up to a known starting position and the doppler measures displacement from that position, which is translated into lat and long positions by the GPI. This process relies on an accurate heading.  Remarkably it was done by analogue clockwork mechanisms in a black box the size of a laser printer. 

Doppler works on signal reflections which are subject to errors. There are particular problems over water where the return signals are weaker and the system will regularly unlock. Some types of desert have a similar effect.  Further errors are caused by ocean drift.  The combined effect can be significant. Over land there are often more opportunities to update the GPI every 30 minutes or so.  The early INS systems relied on accurate initial setup, and without the benefit of GPS, were themselves subject to error, but were generally more accurate than the doppler systems they replaced. Today's aviators would be amazed at how much we relied on hope and skillful estimation in the past.

19 hours ago, dontsink said:

..... I cannot use in FS2020 because of the missing FRZ VOR. And to then create an overlay package by hand (addon) to place in the community folder to overlay the newer NVXnnn.bgl file in the sim's database with the corresponding one from FSX. I will determine the feasibility of doing this. If anyone has any input on this, please, would love to read here.

Interesting post, i also like sometimes to use older aircraft and try my crappy skills and VOR navigation and i've been a bit concerned about all those VOR disappearing.

Im a complete noob in MSFS file structure and SDK but i highly doubt you will be able to use old FSX BGL in MSFS. But it looks like you have done some job already and if you have some sort of list of the oldish VORs with their data (lat / lon / name / range, .....) you can probably add them inside the sim fairly easily. I did a try with the FRZ VOR that you mentioned in your original post and it's now available in my sim (pic below taken from the PMS GTN750 in MSFS).

I'll gladly show you how to do it if you want, but maybe you are already aware of all that, like i said my knowledge is very limited with this and i don't even know if adding some navigation aids will interfere with navigraph or other things.

Anyway something to explore that also got my attention, i'm pretty sure a few guys will be happy if we could set up an old VOR database that we can activate on demand inside the sim when flying older aircraft. Maybe littlenavmap would also pick those up when scanning so we could have a navigation map where we could see them too (haven't tried with my FRZ test).

Edited June 11, 20232 yr by Bad_T

Regarding the airplanes I mentioned above, the X Plane 474-200 (by Felis) is equipped with the Delco Carousel INS which is what I use when crossing the pond,, otherwise radio navigation. The FXS Capt Sim 707 uses Doppler Radar Nav for trans-ocean while using VOR/ADF over land. The FSX Captain Sim 727-200 is optioned with Delco INS (I believe that non-US models were equipped with this), and of course VOR/ADF . The X-Plane DC3 (by Johan Nan Wyk) is modeled with VOR/ADF radios. (Found this great article: https://www.dc3airways.net/tech_editor/files/te_nav_lr_nav.pdf  on navigating without modern nav aids.) Finally, the FSX A2A Constellation is modelled with VOR/ADF only.

I plan on building my single VOR overlay package later today. Will let you know how it works out.

Regarding conflicts or repeated nav-aids with respect to the original .bgl file, I suppose that the .bgl file in the addon package will completely occlude any information in the corresponding original file. Therefore, repeated nav aids should not be an issue. The only problem will be in the case where the original MSFS file contains nav aids that are not in the FSX file. In this case, I will need to modify the FSX file to add the missing nav aids. The probability of this happening is greater when adding missing VORs in areas such as Southern Europe, Eurasia/Russia, South America, the Pacific Rim, and particularly, China. In these areas, the FSX database contains far fewer VORs compared with the modern Databases. However, there are cases in these areas where some VORs in FSX are nevertheless gone in the modern files. This should not be an issue in places like the US and Canada where the number of FSX VORs far exceeds the modern inventory.

For NDB's this should not be an issue at all since the FSX database from 2006 contains far more numerous NDB's compared with the modern equivalent.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Bad_T said:

Interesting post, i also like sometimes to use older aircraft and try my crappy skills and VOR navigation and i've been a bit concerned about all those VOR disappearing.

Im a complete noob in MSFS file structure and SDK but i highly doubt you will be able to use old FSX BGL in MSFS. But it looks like you have done some job already and if you have some sort of list of the oldish VORs with their data (lat / lon / name / range, .....) you can probably add them inside the sim fairly easily. I did a try with the FRZ VOR that you mentioned in your original post and it's now available in my sim (pic below taken from the PMS GTN750 in MSFS).

I'll gladly show you how to do it if you want, but maybe you are already aware of all that, like i said my knowledge is very limited with this and i don't even know if adding some navigation aids will interfere with navigraph or other things.

 

 

Very interesting. Being new to the sim myself, I have no idea how you added the FRZ VOR to the Sim. Please show us.

Actually, the NVX.....bgl files which contain the VOR's and NDB's have not changed in format since FSX. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether NDB-DME's have been supported of late.

I wasn't aware of any way to do this other than to create an occluding NVX...bgl file as a Community addon.

Thank you!

1 hour ago, dontsink said:

I'm not sure of is whether NDB-DME's have been supported of late.

Here is an approach based on a NDB/DME that is supported by MSFS. You tune in the NDB on 220KHz and the DME on 108.8 MHz.

Al

Edited June 11, 20232 yr by ark

2 hours ago, dontsink said:

Very interesting. Being new to the sim myself, I have no idea how you added the FRZ VOR to the Sim. Please show us.

ok this is going to be the most boring post of the entire forum 🙃 ... but if you follow step by step you should get the same result as i did. I also attached a little ZIP file containing the full projet so you can see all files are done, there is nothing else than what is inside the zip so by checking the files, comparing them with the original sample, and reading below you should be able to figure it out.

Very important note, as stated before, i'm not a scenery creator and my knowledge is very limited, i just did this by googling around, it might not be the accurate way to do it 🙊

• Install the MSFS SDK  (link is available inside the sim when you activate developper mode in one of the menu)
• In the sample folder, copy the 'SimpleScenery' folder somewhere else on your disk. We will now only work on that copied folder
• i renamed the base folder 'VOR-Addons'
• in the 'PackageSources' folder, delete the modellib folder
• in the 'PackageSources' folder, rename the objects.xml to vor_addons.xml
• edit the sceneryprojet.xml file -> modify the .xml file name, i rename it to 'vor_addons.xml' instead of 'mycompany-scenery-simple.xml'. At the top of the file i also changed the Name value
• in the 'packagedfinitions' folder
  • rename the folder mycompany-scenery-simple with your own folder name .. i used 'vor-addons'
  •  rename the xml file with the same name that you have put in the step above, so in my case i renamed it to vor-addons.xml
• edit that file (PackageDefinitions\vor-addons.xml)
  • you can remove the full 'assetgroup modellib' section and 'assetgroup marketplace' data. You can also edit the title and creator name.
  • set the correct folder name in the AssetDir and OutputDir entries to match your new folder names (there are 2 outputdir to change)
• now open the packagessources\scene\vor-addons.xml files. That's the main file where you will put your all your VOR data. In the zip you'll find the example for the FRZ VOR. I left the altitude and magvar at 0 because i didn't have the info. Probably the altitude is important because at 0 it seems that my VOR receiver had sometimes a bit of dfficulty getting the signal depending on my location (not sure about all this)
• now you just have to compile the projet, copy the fspackagetool.exe that you can find in the SDK folder in your projet folder and call it by giving him as argument the name of your project xml -> fspackagetool "<yourpath>\VOR-Addons\SceneryProject.xml" -outputdir "<yourpath>\VOR-Addons\Packages\VOR-Addons"
• there should be no error and, after compilation, you will find a new folder automatically created named 'Packages'
• go into 'Packages\VOR-Addons\Packages' and you'll find a vor-addons folder -> that's the folder you have to copy inside your real community folder and it should be ok

just by adding the package in the community folder, the VOR did not appear because i use navigraph data, i had to create an entry for my new vor package in the content.xml file just like navigraph does. If you don't have navigraph, i think it will appear without the need to edit the content.xml file

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>
<Priorities>
  <Package name="navigraph-navdata-base" priority="1"/>
  <Package name="navigraph-navdata" priority="2"/>
  <Package name="vor-addons" priority="3"/>
</Priorities>

Ok might sound a bit complicated reading all this at once, but actually you would just have to complete the list of VORs in the xml file, all the rest in only some 'renaming' that has to be done only once to set up the projet (and you get the modified sample in my zip as reference).

So if you have a full list of VOR that were in FSX but not anymore in MSFS, we could transform that list to fill up the vor-addons.xml file and they should appear (probably better to not add duplicated so it's probably better to just add the ones that don't exist in MSFS). NDB can also be added, we just need to find the correct syntax for them.

Full project, all files included including the package ready to be put in the community folder for the FRZ VOR --> https://www.filemail.com/d/wjiawjbbbtvzekv

But well if you can skip all this and make it work with FSX BGL files it would certainly be a lot easier 😁

🍻

Edited June 11, 20232 yr by Bad_T