Core sim improvements in MSFS 2024 & Phil Spencer interview

[Mace 1,955]

5 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Nice to see the smoothness and lack of popping in the new video though - do you think this will be representative of the actual gameplay?

So far, I haven't seen any popping in the current MSFS with my new hardware and settings. 

Do you mean you're worried about a regression, to where there IS popping or morphing in MSFS2024?

[jcomm 5,995]

I only started noticing buildings and other structures popping in fron of my flightpath, usually on approach, since I turned OFF photogrammetry and Bing 

With the bare bones default scenery it's very apparent.

I could increase my graphics settings, but for me the most important experience always takes place inside of the virtual cockpit, with the exceptions of taxiing, taking off and landing 🙂

Edited June 18, 2023 by jcomm

[bobcat999 8,504]

1 hour ago, Mace said:

So far, I haven't seen any popping in the current MSFS with my new hardware and settings. 

Do you mean you're worried about a regression, to where there IS popping or morphing in MSFS2024?

Just regression in general from what we see now in the announcement video.  We have seen them chip away at graphics fidelity before in the name of performance.  I understand it is a delicate balance.

On another note - Just a general open question...  Does anybody think they can see any sign of ray tracing in the video?  One of the YouTube bloggers thought the scene with the ambulance on the wet surface showed signs of it.

[Shack95 2,665]

8 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Nice to see the smoothness and lack of popping in the new video though - do you think this will be representative of the actual gameplay?    We will have to wait and see I suppose.

I’m not a 100 percent sure but I think in the Grand Canyon scene you can see a hint of terrain morphing (at 1:53-54). But even if that’s the case, the trailer surely looks very promising in this regard. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Shack95

[Tuskin38 6,635]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:31 AM, NZ255 said:

t looked to me like they were hero assets for the trailer.

I don't think they were placed for the trailer, but for the mission area.

[Tuskin38 6,635]

16 hours ago, Funky D said:

I also wonder if they're still using Blackshark AI... it would make sense to bring this in-house to cut down on licensing costs, and between Bing Maps and elevation data, MS probably has all the data they need readily available. The air racing section in Dubrovnik, Croatia looks like photogrammetry, but there currently isn't any 3D Bing maps available for Dubrovnik (or Google maps, for what it's worth). If this is actually auto generated based on the satellite data and not actually photogrammetry, it's a huge visual upgrade.

Also, it's hard to tell by comparing the photogrammetry shot of LA due to the lighting, but the trees appear to be more detailed. I wonder if they were able to replace the ugly photogrammetry trees with autogen trees?

We won't know much until we get more info, but I'd put money on some new procedural tech with much higher detail that makes large portions of the world look great up-close.

The photogrammetry in the sim doesn't always match what is in Bing. The next world update includes Prague photogrammetry (there was a teaser picture in the last Q&A) but Prague doesn't have photogrammetry in Bing (yet).

According to Jorg some third party providers only licence it for one of the platforms. Now stuff that Microsoft takes themselves will be in both.

Regarding Blackshark, they haven't added anything any from them in several World Updates. There's been no new building types added to the sim since I think the Scandinavian World Update? Maybe whatever was before.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Tuskin38

[MrFuzzy 2,124]

16 hours ago, Mace said:

So far, I haven't seen any popping in the current MSFS with my new hardware and settings. 

Seriously? What settings are you using?

As far as I could see, since I upgraded to the 7800X3D I only get more fps at LOD 200 but LOD 400 still produces stuttering and pop in is still present at LOD 400 anyway.

[Shack95 2,665]

On 6/18/2023 at 2:14 AM, Funky D said:

The air racing section in Dubrovnik, Croatia looks like photogrammetry, but there currently isn't any 3D Bing maps available for Dubrovnik (or Google maps, for what it's worth). If this is actually auto generated based on the satellite data and not actually photogrammetry, it's a huge visual upgrade.

I had another look at the Dubrovnik scene and compared it to a phtogrammetry version (https://vektra.net/en/project/dubrovnik-stara-gradska-jezgra/) and I’d say it has to be photogrammetry. It’s just too detailed and too accurate. For instance, that roof that’s being renovated - I just can’t imagine that Blackshark AI is capable of rendering that.

Having said that, I still hope that they will improve Blackshark for MSFS 2024.

On 6/18/2023 at 2:14 AM, Funky D said:

Also, it's hard to tell by comparing the photogrammetry shot of LA due to the lighting, but the trees appear to be more detailed. I wonder if they were able to replace the ugly photogrammetry trees with autogen trees?

The trees at Griffith Observatory look very good and are definitely not photogrammetry. Interestingly, I don't see any weird artifacts caused by photogrammetry trees in this scene. It looks to me like they completely reworked this area specially for the mission and replaced the PG with hand-modelled buildings and trees. Whether this involved using a new algorithm to replace PG trees with autogen trees is hard to say. That would certainly be a massive step forward, but I kind of doubt it. For example, if you zoom into the LA screenshot below, you can see some weird blobs that remind me of PG trees. This indicates that they can‘t replace PG trees globally (yet). But it's hard to tell for sure because of the lighting.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Shack95

[Shack95 2,665]

21 hours ago, Tuskin38 said:

The photogrammetry in the sim doesn't always match what is in Bing. The next world update includes Prague photogrammetry (there was a teaser picture in the last Q&A) but Prague doesn't have photogrammetry in Bing (yet).

That's interesting. Prague as well as some other Eastern European cities (Brno, Plzeň, Maribor, Ljubljana, Sarajevo and Budapest) already had photogrammetry in Bing Maps a month ago. For some reason, these cities have been taken out again.

Other places that have PG in Bing Maps but not in the sim (yet) are Harvey Bay, Coffs Harbour, Sunshine Coast and Bundaberg in Australia, St. Tropez, Arcachon, Ajaccio and Calvi in France. There might be more. These are just the ones I've found.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Shack95

[Mace 1,955]

9 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

Seriously? What settings are you using?

As far as I could see, since I upgraded to the 7800X3D I only get more fps at LOD 200 but LOD 400 still produces stuttering and pop in is still present at LOD 400 anyway.

I use 4K Ultra, 200 TLOD with FSLTL.  And yes, I'm serious.  I've been flying around the Andes Mountains using Orbx South America mesh with PMDG737-700 and 3rd party Lima, Cusco, etc. sceneries, and haven't seen any popping or terrain morphing at all.

I also tested it over New York City with iniBuilds KJFK and aftermarket Teterboro loaded and didn't notice any pop or morph there either.

[MrFuzzy 2,124]

16 minutes ago, Mace said:

I use 4K Ultra, 200 TLOD with FSLTL.  And yes, I'm serious.  I've been flying around the Andes Mountains using Orbx South America mesh with PMDG737-700 and 3rd party Lima, Cusco, etc. sceneries, and haven't seen any popping or terrain morphing at all.

I also tested it over New York City with iniBuilds KJFK and aftermarket Teterboro loaded and didn't notice any pop or morph there either.

Yeah, aftermarket stuff does not pop in and morph... also true for aftermarket coastlines. LODs are most probably higher and more optimized than the default scenery. If you fly on default scenery you will see relief morphing and trees and buildings popping in, even airports disappearing and reappearing after 1-2 sec on approach.

These are intrinsic limitations of the engine I think (after 3 years and many sim updates), hopefully we will see some of these issues resolved in FS2024 but I am not too optimistic on that.

[Mace 1,955]

5 minutes ago, MrFuzzy said:

Yeah, aftermarket stuff does not pop in and morph... also true for aftermarket coastlines. LODs are most probably higher and more optimized than the default scenery. If you fly on default scenery you will see relief morphing and trees and buildings popping in, even airports disappearing and reappearing after 1-2 sec on approach.

These are intrinsic limitations of the engine I think (after 3 years and many sim updates), hopefully we will see some of these issues resolved in FS2024 but I am not too optimistic on that.

Well, but I flew around New York with default terrain and didn't see it either.

I'll keep a sharper eye out for that I guess.  I don't know what to say.  I run a 200 TLOD which is fine for me, maybe that's the reason. 

[Tuskin38 6,635]

23 hours ago, Shack95 said:

That's interesting. Prague as well as some other Eastern European cities (Brno, Plzeň, Maribor, Ljubljana, Sarajevo and Budapest) already had photogrammetry in Bing Maps a month ago. For some reason, these cities have been taken out again.

Oh that is interesting...