Thinking of upgrading to Vista? Read this...

[Guest LarsKluver]

Interesting thread, as i too have decided to stay away from Windows Vista because of the above mentioned reasons. Furthermore i've heard that FSX only can be installed twice. If you need to install it a third time, they (MS) wants to know why.I haven't got this verified, but with the limitations on Windows Vista, i wouldn't be surprised.As what someone else said here - if i buy a product, it's mine - period.CheersLars Kl

[Guest Kingair315]

Not everyone can afford to buy stock, the money they make goes to raising children, buying clothing and food, etc... Ive also known many who =lost= a lot of money buying stock, when they were smart enough to play that game.

[Sonar5 3]

>Another good>article,http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/index.php?p=158This gets uglier and uglier...That and the thread about FSX being installed twice does not excite me in the least.I think what it comes down to is this suggestion which I read somewhere else.."Paraphrased"If you have to call Microsft everytime you buy a new "device", hard drive, vid card, memory, motherboard, processor, etc... Just tell them everytime it was because of a hardware failure.I see lawsuits in their future with regards to Vista, if they deny reactivating someones OS. Or FSX for that matter.Choice or no choice, they need to respect the LEGAL consumer. It's bad enough they think six versions of Vista is a good thing.... That is about the dumbest idea I have read about their impending release of Vista.It's bad enough they release FSX and imply it will run better on Vista with a DX10 card that cannot even be bought yet. Guess what, that may be a second device, who knows. Next....Yeppers, hardware failure will always be my line. if they want to screw around defining "device" as they have, I can surely screw around right back by my own definition of harware failure when I upgrade.Thoughts???Regards,Joe

[Sonar5 3]

Maybe a clarification coming as pointed out here.....http://www.windows-now.com/blogs/robert/ar...ng-Shortly.aspx

[Guest Kev_Is_Soaked]

Sorry for the rather long post, but I wanted to address several aspects of this thread. For anyone wishing to skip it, that's all good, I'll summerize what is in the post and you can read it to find out more if it interests you.- What is a 'Device'?- 2 Processors?- How does activation work? Hash Keys explained.- Privacy. MS actually CARE!- Why I could be out of business because of Vista Licensing.- Why the car analogy doesn't hold water! (or oil!)- In Closing. The truth.I really did feel the need to say some words on the subject here. Firstly though, I will mention that in addition to being a FS user and fellow hobby flyer, I am also a professional IT consultant. I am also a FPS gamer, and am quite familiar with online gaming and it's protection strategies. Punkbuster and Windows Activation are much alike when it comes to the interior guts of things. Punkbuster is actually a cheat protection system for First-Person-Shooters, it relies on having a unique identifier for every individiual playing a certain game so that if they are found to be cheating, they can be banned without the limitations of IP or host banning. This unique identifier comes about much the same way as Windows Activation.What is a 'Device'?A "device" is a collection of individual parts that combine to create a platform. The platform in question, a Vista laptop or desktop, is a combination of an mainboard, ram, graphics adapter, and hard disk. Other hardware may be present, but isn't considered part of the legal definition of a "device". So basically a "device" is any complete system with an OS that is capable of running the software.A working palm-pilot is a "device"A working desktop PC with an activated XP is a "device"A working laptop with an activated Vista is a "device"A hard drive is part of the device, same with the graphics adapter, memory and mainboard. Any change of those four parts within the "device" constitutes as being a new "device". That Microsoft have included the hard disk info in the hash code is arguable.... although there are many reports of Windows activation being required even when someone 'Ghosts' a complete XP install to a new drive; which, for the masses, is evidence enough.2 Processors?When I mention DUAL processor here, I specifically mean a server mainboard with two PHYSICAL processors. Home users with AMD X2's or Intels CoreDuo or the likes will still be considered as requiring a single processor license. The "2 Processor" thing comes up a lot around SQL Server, or Win2k/2003 Advanced Server. Basically upon installation of these products, limitations are severe on the amount of processors that is licensed to run the software. I have seen many national and even a global enterprise IT department purchase SQL Server for a single processor while trying to install it on their dual processor HP Proliant servers. It installs and runs just fine, but come audit time they are pooched!Vista, being a server platform (Ultimate and Business Editions), will likely follow suit and be more expensive to purchase seats for a true dual processor machine. This is a way for Microsoft to have two pricing structures for THE SAME product!!!! One that they charge to people (large corporations) because they can afford it, and the other that they charge to smaller entities like you and I because we couldn't afford the Corporate pricing. This is Microsofts way of REALLY milking the cow, as a "one price fits all" strategy would mean less money. How would it be if Lexas charged three times as much for the same car just because the buyer has more money in their wallet? Sadistic.... yet MS get away with it. Then again, these large corporations rely on the software to run their business and thus make money from the software.... then again, so do I and I'm a 'work from home' bum.How does Activation work, what is a HASH code?How do they determine when, what constitutes a "device", has changed? Well. First of all a device can be summed up by what is called a HASH code. Let me explain.Most parts of your computer are identifiable. For instance, your mainboard has a BIOS date/time and version, so do most graphics cards. Memory usually has a serial number, as do most hard drives and processors. Software like CPU-Z can tell you exactly what kind of RAM you have in your machine, SiSoft Sandra can do the same, and more. Thereare many types of data that can be read from each piece of hardware and thus, you can take a complete inventory of that hardware.A hash code is simple. Take specific data from several pieces of hardware that you want included in the protection algorithym, perform a preset mathamatical equasion whose result ends up as a 256 character string of what you and I would consider garbage. This hash code is then sent to Microsofts database when you activate for the very first time.If you change a device, the hash code will be different simply because new data comes from that device, and the math equasion result changes significantly. You should be okay as long as you don't have to reinstall Windows.... however a processor or mainboard upgrade may mean a reinstall.Upon a reinstall, the new hash code is sent to Microsoft and it determines whether you've installed once, twice, or if this is the third change. If it is the third, it will prompt you to reactivate by phone.... which usually means that you sit on hold for 20 minutes, then dial in your product key three times because it cannot validate the key your entering, then FINALLY talk to a customer representative who may or may not be having a bad day. (I've had it happen that way EVERY time!)Privacy! MS REALLY do care!!!Using the hash code is a means of privacy control to protect users. I read somewhere on here about the invasion of privacy or something, but in all honestly, I would rather Microsoft only had me send them a code that represents the outcome of some math on some data collected from my PC than have them send the data itself.... wouldn't be nice to have all those serial numbers floating between here and Richmond where anybody could intercept it. The hash code is not reversable. No one on earth can undo the math and come up with all the data on your devices. It is rather complex really, but to give you the basics, when a hash code is generated, it uses the actual device data in determining the equasion it will use on the data. The data IS the 'key'. Without the data, you cannot possibly figure out how the final hash code relates to the date, and you don't ever have to. All Microsoft depend on, is the fact that when you next try to activate, the same data generates the same hash code and all is well. To give you an example of what kind of problems could arise from this, what would happen if counterfitters got their hand on a valid serial number of your mainboard? They could sell that copy to someone, who has a breakdown in the first month. He registered his purchase as he thought it was legal at the time, and sends it in for repair. Six months later, YOUR mainboard fails, and you send it in for repair. The technicians notice that the name and address is very different and that you both provided a bill of sale. They would refuse to service your mainboard until they sort it all out. Eventually they will get with accounting and logistics and figure out that the actual serial numbered board was delivered to the same Best-Buy that is on your receipt, and then it gets fixed while the other guy goes on the FBI's least wanted list. Not a major problem, but it IS something I have seen happen twice now over the years.Why I could be out of business because of Vista Licensing.My business DEPENDS on me being up to par with the latest OS innovations, many hardware configurations, and basically being familiar with almost any conceivable setup that I may encounter in the field. It is for this reason that my machine is constantly upgraded with the latest software and hardware. Does this mean I am out of business simply because of Vista licensing?!?!?!?!Why the car analogy doesn't hold water! (or oil!)Oh, forgot to mention. If I buy the latest and greatest self parking Lexus today, and lose both sets of keys tomorrow.... do I have to buy a whole new Lexus?!?!? NO! Do I have to fork out $450 for a brand new electronic key to drive my car? No... because I paid the extra for the SmartAccess Keyfob, which does exist if you visit a Lexus dealer. Why doesn't Vista come with something like that? For the price they are asking I firmly believe they should, and at least offer the "2 Install Limited" version at half price.In Closing. The TruthThe largest question on peoples minds right now is of the rumor of Vista allowing only 2 installs and only 2 installs. I think that we are wasting time dismantling Microsofts definition of 'Device'. The important thing is understanding if in fact Windows Vista will only allow 2 installs on differing devices before you have to spend money on a new copy.Windows XP only allows 2 installs, then you have to call them on each subsequent installs. (installs meaning 'activation required installs')Is it possible that the info for Vista licensing, or the hyped up postings all over the world have somehow distorted the fact that Vista is simply following suit in the XP activation process while maintaining corporate Pricing strategies? That you can install it plenty of times as long as you call them? Has someone close to the source of it all gotten it wrong and actually made a boo-boo of great proportions?! Who knows. Sometimes even large media outlets can generate false beliefs. For example I am a Scots/Canadian, whilst visiting Scotland a few years ago I was asked by a passer-by, who heard my accent, if I'd heard about the "Police State Canada". I got the jist of it from him, that Southern Ontario was a complete police state where everyday things were completely shut down and garrisoned by the national guard.... all because of a giant snowstorm that closed everything down and started pandemonium. I ran home, turned on BBC and watched for news. Sure enough there was footage of soldiers arresting civilians downtown Toronto while the news reporter talked about robberys and anarchy. I called my dad. It took him a while, but he settled my mind after a half hour of convincing that the storm had shut down the entire southern half of Ontario. The national guard was brought in simply to counter any possibility of the fact that police couldn't respond to most emergencies, and to make sure that people who did have to leave their houses could do so safely. Here I was thinking that complete anarchy had broken out, when in fact there were about 40 minor reports of break-ins and assaults. The media had hyped it up to make a story. It does happen it is is believable, even when from a reputable source like the BBC.Has it happened here? Good possibility of it, the first three websites I saw reporting this news were not high-calibre Microsoft representatives or affiliations..... just forum posts from people like you and I. Until I hear it from the horses mouth - I'm afraid I'm gonna sit tight.The only thing I will say for sure is that I firmly believe that IF Microsoft IS actually changing their licensing of Vista to actually allow only 2 installs, then they should definetely DROP their price, and consumers should have the benefit of seeing it printed in BIG BOLD CAPS across the front of the packaging that they are paying for something that they can only install twice. Or.... as I suggested earlier, half price for the "2 install Version" while giving out a free KeyFob with the expensive version that allows unlimited use. How cool would it be to buy one copy of Vista, and each copy would ONLY work with a special USB device attached. You could have 3 machines at home using the same copy of windows.... since you only have one keyfob, you can only log in to one copy at any one time!!!!(oh no I've given MS an idea that they can implement and charge an extra $300 for while calling it an 'added bonus!')Disclaimer (I'll try not to word this like an EULA :)Well, I've put over two hours into this post, hopefully I've answered a question from at least one person, and cleared something else up for another. I don't pretend that I know everything about licensing and all that, even Microsoft don't understand it. I don't pretend to be a know-it-all on the subjects I've spoken about, I'm simply giving out info based on how I perceive the situation given my IT experience. It's my intention to simply add a positive note to your thread with some information I believe to be fairly accurate and respectful. This is my first post here, been lurking for months.

[Guest Fortress]

>Well, if you read it on the internet, then it MUST be true.>Hahahaha!!!http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27836Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/temp/avsim.gifConcorde Training Captainwww.bavirtual.co.uk

[greggerm 312]

FANTASTIC first post. Appreciated!!

[Guest panda234]

I wonder what the hardware vendors think? A $200 video card upgrade gets a lot more expensive when you have to buy a $300 Vista license in order to get it to work. And memory, CPU, and harddisk upgrades? billg

[nudata 10]

Once again the consumers are paying the penalty for thieves doing their dirty work. Microsoft is a monopoly. Unfortunately, they have more than enough cash on-hand to pay off anyone who wants to fight that. Thus we will be saddled with evermore onerous protection schemes just because Microsoft cannot create a proper protection system. Once again, they are a monopoly which will FORCE this particular group of sim enthusiasts to do whatever Microsoft wants them to do or find another hobby!! Dick near 5G8

[jonss1948 20]

QUOTE:Furthermore, I think this might somehow be illegal. If it isn't it, such a shackle should be made illegal. I think it's time that the Government stands up for the rights of us consumers and drags M$'s butt back into court. Apparently the slap on the wrist they got last time was not sufficient enough punishment to make them see the light and correct the error of their "let's play the monopoly card" bullying ways./QUOTEUnfortunately, this is quite legal, I believe. Also, with the likes of HP getting on the co-operative drm bandwagon, pretty soon we'll all be going to respective manufacturers to ask if it's ok to logon to the www.Where is this going to place those like myself who builds their own systems and delights in completely re-installing their os every 6 months to obtain a virgin install?Let's face it. We will all, in the fullness of time, migrate to Vista. We'll have no choice and we will not like doing it but we will. As more and more software is written for Vista and M$ bins support for XP as they did with '98 and ME, we will be at their mercy. It seems to me that M$'s monopoly has enabled them to create a totally 'new' market for additional software upgrades, as much of the software we all use with XP will not migrate to Vista. I'm generally not a M$ knocker and it is very early days, yet but the future does not seem to be all that bright for the 'tinkerer'. Having said that, I guess some bright spark will come up with a workaround.Jon S.

[Guest Charlie]

>Unfortunately, this is quite legal, I believe. Also, with the>likes of HP getting on the co-operative drm bandwagon, pretty>soon we'll all be going to respective manufacturers to ask if>it's ok to logon to the www.>Where is this going to place those like myself who builds>their own systems and delights in completely re-installing>their os every 6 months to obtain a virgin install?>>Let's face it. We will all, in the fullness of time, migrate>to Vista. We'll have no choice and we will not like doing it>but we will. As more and more software is written for Vista>and M$ bins support for XP as they did with '98 and ME, we>will be at their mercy. It seems to me that M$'s monopoly has>enabled them to create a totally 'new' market for additional>software upgrades, as much of the software we all use with XP>will not migrate to Vista. I'm generally not a M$ knocker and>it is very early days, yet but the future does not seem to be>all that bright for the 'tinkerer'. Having said that, I guess>some bright spark will come up with a workaround.>>Jon S.Don

[W2DR 1,860]

The small minority are those of us who frequently change hardware and/or reinstall the OS. And we really are a very small percentage of the total users. We're the ones affected because we're the only ones who would ever have a reacivation problem. Most all users never change the hardware nor reinstall the OS so they are not affected at all.Doug

[Guest Charlie]

Understood, but remember the other even more significant change:"The software will from time to time validate the software, update or require download of the validation feature of the software," it reads. "If after a validation check, the software is found not to be properly licensed, the functionality of the software may be affected." That is an invasion of privacy affecting everyone running Vista. Since these are uncharted waters, who knows what new forms of additional grief may result from it.

[DescendDescend 25]

Too right.I was looking forward to Vista but there is no way I will buy it if I cant transfer it between machines as per XP. Having built five machines over the last few years it has to be flexible enought to allow me to do that again.You never know - someone may get dx10 to run on xp.

[Guest Ozzie]

Sorry for adding another Long Reply to an excellent postOnce again - for those that feel that they already know everything - then there is no need to read this - just skip past to the next post - pleaseI am retired and have several computers of varying ages to amuse me and my family as and when needs ariseI personally get a great deal of pleasure out of the ONLY game that I "play" - that is strangely enough FS (currently FS9 under XP - with additions) - My wife has a prediliction to another "game" by the same company that is running on "Her" machine (using a machine that one of our kids had no use for anymore) - this is being typed up on my "old" machine (which still has FS2002 on it for nostalgic reasons) with its own internet connection during a changeover phase to that wonderful thing called Broadband that most of you take for granted but is in reallity quite hard to achieve where I liveMind you - I had a great deal of trouble when I 1st obtained FS9 - I had "put it" on my then current machine and decided that I needed an "upgrade" to a complete new machine to achieve what I wanted - the "trouble started" after I then decided to "join the two" in a small home network - low and behold - I was extrememely Lazy 9 because of hasre) in my methodology and did NOT remove FS9 from my previous machineThat is when "ALL ####" broke loose - I was accused of all sorts of piracy because I actually had FS9 on a mackine that could NOT run it and I had it on another machine that could potentially do so - so _ like a good little consumer - I then uninstalled FS9 From my original machine and tried to get it working on my great new $3000 mackineNO SUCH LUCKAfter many phone calls to THE COMPANY - usually greeted with hails of laughter - I ended up having to PAY someone (sexpert - drip under pressure) that I thought did not really know what he was doing to spend 7 hours - getting FS9 OFF my old machine and working on my new oneInteresting? - and EXPENSIVE - you bet!For those of you that have got this far - then keep reading - you may get a better picture of this discussionI was (when I was working) considered as some sort of better than average salesperson (even held all sorts of Titles over the years) and even managed to secure "THE" job with "THE" company of the decade (last Century) - after signing all the required NDA's, CIC's, CA's demanded I was then put through the lobotomisation course and actually got to hear one of the "vision" statements from one of the great men - inspiring stuff way back in the '90'sI resigned from what was potentially the best "job" I would have ever had on principle (some salesfolk actually do have Principles) because of what I am not allowed to repeat that I became aware of without endangering what is left of my lifestyleI have been soundly critised over the years (and even banned from some sites) for using the $ symbol in some of my statements - generally associated with the word Micro - well it is my personal opinion that "certain persons/companies" have finally graduated past the word Macro - to the word Major and on legal advice - I cannot elaborateI can however point out that most of what is said by "Key_Is_Soaked" is not far off the mark - there have been a fairly large number of Companies over the years that did NOT seem to have that much trouble with producing tight, well managed "Code" to handle multiple processors (lets face it Multi-Core Processors were not invented then) - some of whom survive today - some of whom were destroyed by economic pressure or simply "absorbed"It is my personal observation (hopefully I am still allowed to have THAT at least) that "WE" as a consumer fraternity have missed the Boat - and that the Monolith will survive - perhaps it may NOT be TOO lateFor those that are of VOTING age - wherever you may live - perhaps it is time to express your personal feelings to YOUR Government representative and hopefully prevent Mr Orwells vision of the world from occuringI realise that this is something that will possible pass at about FL35 over a large number of heads - but hopefully some of the more intelligent ones may THINKDisclaimer - These are my PERSONAL thoughts ONLY - they DO NOT break any of the many agreements that I have signed in the past and NO INFERRANCE should be drawn by anyone as to the accuracy or otherwise of any statement that I have made and I make NO DIRECT statements as to whatever occupations I may or may not have had in the pastAny inferrances that may or may not be drawn is totally in the eye of the reader and I bear NO RESPONSIBILY for whatever those inferences may or may not be