Flickering PMDG glass cockpits w/ panning w/ Nv FG?

[sniper31 650]

24 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

I just realised yesterday that forcing V-sync on in NCP combined with G-sync produces much less screen tearing. Digital Foundry recommends this and consider activating G-sync a 2-step process: 1. Activate G-Sync on both full-screen and window mode 2. Force V-Sync on. Of course V-sync should be left off in the sim. 

This is exactly how I have mine setup, V-Sync OFF in MSFS, but forced ON in Nvidia control panel settings (under MSFS). Great results for me as well, no shimmering or tearing. Been running it like this for about a month now. 

[micstatic 4,340]

5 hours ago, Ixoye said:

Why do you use V-Sync if you have a G-Sync monitor? V-Sync only comes in play if your fps are higher than your monitors refresh rate, if your fps are higher just cap your frames three fps lower than your monitors refresh rate in NCP instead, the artifacts you have may be due to using both sync methods at the same time.

yeah not at my rig right now.  Think you are right and I misspoke.  Have a max frame rate in NCP.  The artifacts I have (Minor) are related to DX12 and how MSFS handles that.  Of course that's widely spoken about.  

[Noel 4,563]

22 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

I just realised yesterday that forcing V-sync on in NCP combined with G-sync produces much less screen tearing.

I still use RTSS' edge sync and it's fabulous IF you wish to lock frames, and no tearing whatsoever with this model w/ FG enabled.  Even with an FG frame rate of 56 animation is ultra smooth and free of any stuttering whatsoever with the 9900K, which runs cool as does the 4090, but it's absolutely great. 

Today's capture was done wide open, unlocked, with max rate 3 below my refresh which is at 122Hz currently.  The glass cockpit flickering during pan which is really quite modest now and non troublesome now, is marginally better when the FG frame rate is up in the 90-117 range.  In fact I've found panning is in some ways better with the rate and FTV controlled, FWIW.  As predicted early on 'brute force' obscures poorer FTV so no problems with the perception of stuttering per se with either approach.  So for me the primary subjective difference between wide open and rate controlled to 56 or 60 just isn't there.  The main objective difference: my CPU runs much cooler when the rate is controlled for obvious reasons.  Hence, zero need for a new CPU at this time.  And near as we can tell that will only get much better with 2024 release.

 

 

Edited February 20 by Noel

[Ixoye 1,837]

I noticed that DLSS removes the flickering on the displays, but then you have to put up with blurry displays instead, so that's no solution to the problem either, I tried locking my fps at 60 because my computer can hold that even at the busiest airports and I couldn't tell the difference between 60 and 90 fps, except that the fans run quieter and the computer runs cooler.

Edited February 20 by Ixoye

[Noel 4,563]

Just curious Ixoye, you've got the best CPU/GPU combo there is for this sim, plus we have the same display.  What is your fully sustainable frame rate (mneaning anywhere, any plane) with FG off?

[Ixoye 1,837]

53 minutes ago, Noel said:

Just curious Ixoye, you've got the best CPU/GPU combo there is for this sim, plus we have the same display.  What is your fully sustainable frame rate (mneaning anywhere, any plane) with FG off?

I would say around 40 fps with Ultra settings in the worst case scenarios, I saw you use RTSS' edge sync , must try it, do you use it together with G-Sync?

edit, I remember now that I saw a dip to around 65 fps fps with FG during take off from Orbx EKCH, but that was probably a bug in the scenery.

Edited February 20 by Ixoye

[Noel 4,563]

1 hour ago, Ixoye said:

I would say around 40 fps with Ultra settings in the worst case scenarios, I saw you use RTSS' edge sync , must try it, do you use it together with G-Sync?

edit, I remember now that I saw a dip to around 65 fps fps with FG during take off from Orbx EKCH, but that was probably a bug in the scenery.

Yes Gsync works fine with edge sync--it mainly helps deal with not a tear per se, but a kind of ripple that appears now and again during panning, but I don't see even that with FG at a rate of 56 or 60.  I say 56 or 60 because there really isn't a difference.  It's been a long time since I did a serious comparison of any other kind of Vsync but a year ago when I discovered this method it beat them all for frame time variance.   Kind of cool to use RTSS' programming to allow you to adjust the rate lock during runtime with a key press, or disable the lock outright with another key press.  Makes it easy to compare for things like glass panel flicker, which is modest now, but absent without FG on.

That is a bit surprising, the around 40 for your system, I would have assumed closer to 50 or so, based on what I see with 9900K.  If you're running TLOD very high that would explain it.  I use DynamicLOD and on ground I'm at TLOD of 50, which is fine, then scales up to 160 at cruise altitude which is fine n dandy for my eyes.

Anyway you slice it's great now and 4090 was the right move.  I had planned to do CPU upgrade first, but this obviates that.   I hope they amp up cloud resolution so I can put this 4090 up to some real work because right now, at 60fps per FG, it's literally coasting along at about 40% utilization.  It's pretty clear to me VRAM headroom has eliminated those few stutters I used to get.  I'm seeing VRAM in use now well over the 12GB in the prior GPU.  Right now the norm is in and out of anywhere with zero stutters.  I may help to have the kind of CPU headroom that the controlled rate provides.  Right now my CPU temp:  46-52C, whereas prior to 4090 closer to 58-60C.

[Ixoye 1,837]

27 minutes ago, Noel said:

That is a bit surprising, the around 40 for your system, I would have assumed closer to 50 or so, based on what I see with 9900K.  If you're running TLOD very high that would explain it.

There is no hardware that can handle this game in DX11 in the worst possible weather situations at 3d'party airports with a lot of AI in Ultra settings, I would be happy if you could share your RTSS settings, I can't find any "edge sync" options in the program.

Edited February 20 by Ixoye

[Noel 4,563]

3 hours ago, Ixoye said:

There is no hardware that can handle this game in DX11 in the worst possible weather situations at 3d'party airports with a lot of AI in Ultra settings, I would be happy if you could share your RTSS settings, I can't find any "edge sync" options in the program.

You're using DX12 for FG, no?

You can read about it here.  My sense is, with FG, it's not needed so much as it was when I was running modest frame rate of 33-35 where ultra low FTV really does equate to the perception of ultra smooth animation.  But, cool to be able to bump the lock up and down and disable it with key presses.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/628655-ultimate-smoothness-at-modest-frame-rates/?do=findComment&comment=4899096

On second thought, if you're limiting rate like I am then I'm pretty sure the benefits of edge sync (over any kind of Vsync) should well come into play as my FTV capture demonstrates even with FG you're getting very low FTV, and then the AI will insert its intermediate frame uniformly spaced as well.  Right now I'm running a native rate of 28 and it's fabulous w/ its FG rate of 56.  This to me seems like a prescription for optimizing for 2024's greatly improved multithreading performance, and that's huge.  Bring on the enhanced scenery and cloud structure!

 

Edited February 20 by Noel

[Cpt_Piett 4,817]

5 hours ago, Noel said:

Kind of cool to use RTSS' programming to allow you to adjust the rate lock during runtime with a key press, or disable the lock outright with another key press.

Didn't know about this - great feature, thanks! 

Limiting FPS at 80 and then switching b/w on and off, the GPU use increases from 60-80%. I think I'll experiment a bit with framerate limit on/off. 

Currently sitting at the gate at EHAM in the Fenix w/ GPU 60%, CPU 20%. Running at DLSS 3072x1728 using DLSS. Main thread 23ms, GPU 10ms. FTV <2ms at 76.7%. 

Interestingly, if I remove the framerate limit (FPS increases up to 105), main thread goes down to 18ms and FTV <2ms increases to 88.8%. Capping at 60FPS and main thread jumps up to 31ms (!) with a FTV <2ms at 74.6%. 

Btw instead of edge sync I've been using Nvidia reflex  in RTSS. Did some reading about this and reflex made the most sense when using FG.

Note: If I switch to edge sync, main thread frametime goes down to 18-19ms. Hence it doesn't seem that the reflex option in framerate limiter is a good one, at least when it comes to MSFS. 

Edited February 21 by Cpt_Piett

[Noel 4,563]

28 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Btw instead of edge sync I'm using Nvidia reflex  in RTSS

Not sure what you mean there.  What's Nv reflex?   The lower the frame rate, the more glass panel lines and text flicker during panning, but even at 60FPS it's subtle enough to ignore. And I have bloom on again.  I'm in the CRJ700 at the moment so I bumped the lock to 80fps and it's still cruising w/ little load and the flicker is vastly diminished.

Edited February 21 by Noel

[Cpt_Piett 4,817]

13 minutes ago, Noel said:

What's Nv reflex?

It's a technology that reduces system latency. Bit harder to understand why RTSS includes it along with async and edge sync. The RTSS app describes it as follows: 

Quote

In this mode RTSS completely disables its own precise framepacing implementation and uses NVIDIA's own framerate limiter instead. This mode is mainly intended to be used in conjunction with DLSS Frame Generation, which is generally not compatible with any third party framerate limiters. However you can also use this mode in the games with no native NVIDIA Reflex support, because enabling NVIDIA Reflex framerate limiter in such titles will also enable Reflex low-latency mode as a side effect. Please take a note that NVIDIA Reflex framerate limiting mode is currently supported on NVIDIA GPUs and in DX11/DX12 applications only. If you try to enable it on unsupported hardware on in unsupported applications, RivaTuner Statistics Server will fall back to default async framerate limiting mode.

 

13 minutes ago, Noel said:

The lower the frame rate, the more glass panel lines and text flicker during panning, but even at 60FPS it's subtle enough to ignore.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Been testing 60, 80 and 110 FPS - panning around the Fenix cockpit. If I really concentrate and focus, those FG-related artefacts are somewhat more pronounced. But it's very subtle. 

Again, and I think we will agree on this: frame time variance is much more important in regards to perceived smoothness than FPS!

 

Edited February 21 by Cpt_Piett

[Ixoye 1,837]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

You're using DX12 for FG, no?

You can read about it here.  My sense is, with FG, it's not needed so much as it was when I was running modest frame rate of 33-35 where ultra low FTV really does equate to the perception of ultra smooth animation.  But, cool to be able to bump the lock up and down and disable it with key presses.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/628655-ultimate-smoothness-at-modest-frame-rates/?do=findComment&comment=4899096

On second thought, if you're limiting rate like I am then I'm pretty sure the benefits of edge sync (over any kind of Vsync) should well come into play as my FTV capture demonstrates even with FG you're getting very low FTV, and then the AI will insert its intermediate frame uniformly spaced as well.  Right now I'm running a native rate of 28 and it's fabulous w/ its FG rate of 56.  This to me seems like a prescription for optimizing for 2024's greatly improved multithreading performance, and that's huge.  Bring on the enhanced scenery and cloud structure!

 

Thank's Noel, I will try this, but I've seen several glitches with DX12, snow covered trees in daylight look miserable, they sparkle as if they were covered with Christmas tree glitter, so I'm thinking of giving up on DX12, the image quality in DX11 is so much better.

[Noel 4,563]

34 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Again, and I think we will agree on this: frame time variance is much more important in regards to perceived smoothness than FPS!

And the lower the frame rate, the more important FTV becomes 🐵

[Ixoye 1,837]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

You're using DX12 for FG, no

 

Yes, but the performance test I did was in DX11 with all the bells and whistles turned on in thick foggy weather 😄