Flickering PMDG glass cockpits w/ panning w/ Nv FG?

[RJC68 824]

5 hours ago, Ixoye said:

Looks great, but can you hold 86fps at the gate on airports as well, or in other words, everywhere in all situations? I think that's important to keep FTV consistent, I think 90 FG (45 native) fps are a good starting point, lower than that and the problems starts to show, just as same it does in native mode, with jerky panning etc.

So far yes 86 fps has been easily achievable especially with the AutoLod app. At 86 fps the sim is incredibly smooth, smoother than what I see at 97 fps because of the tighter ftv and if there is any reasonable fluctuations then GSYNC takes care of it. 

[Noel 4,576]

14 hours ago, RJC68 said:

That is so weird,

I can honestly say I have never seen a single artifact from the day I put my 4090 in.

What cards/motherboards are you running?

Well that's hopeful because many describe similar issues and you're saying no issues.  I think it's rate-related but could be some other factor is involved as well.  As I say up at altitude I can open it up and see 110fps over lighter terrain and the glass cockpits flicker/shimmer essentially are obscured and it's decent.  But no can do that where it matters, on or close to the ground.

I just installed a new 4090 Founders Edition, my preferred choice for the past 3 GPUs.  Remember I've had essentially perfect performance within the confines of my hardware for over a year now vis a vis my cards/motherboard.

Let me know what driver you're using perhaps that's involved, but I doubt it.  Tried the last two for it and no difference.

Edited February 24 by Noel

[RJC68 824]

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

Remember I've had essentially perfect performance within the confines of my hardware for over a year now vis a vis my cards/motherboard.

That’s why I’m wondering if your CPU is having a big part in the issues your seeing Noel, maybe it really is struggling to keep up with your 4090

[RJC68 824]

4 minutes ago, Noel said:

I just installed a new 4090 Founders Edition

How much room is there in your case and what are your temps like? Could it be heat related ?

I  knew I’d be getting a 4090 so when I built my PC last summer I chose the awesome Fractal Design Torrent case, it has 3 x 140mm fans under the GPU and 2 x 180mm fans at the front of the case 

[Noel 4,576]

Everything is super cool Richard:  GPU 40c@38% use, CPU 48C@67% at EHAM gate now.

As Cpt Piett says...

Noel, I've referred to FG-artifacts both in this thread and elsewhere on this forum, going all the way back to autumn '22 when the RTX40-series launched. I also posted videos using FG in different scenarios.

Artifacts are an inherent side effect with FG due to AI-generated frames inserted in between native frames. It does not bother me much except when panning very fast, or when native FPS is low. 

I have to see if I can get a proper video and don't know with with FG enabled it's tearing terribly!

Honestly, I think the Cpt makes note of an important reality about this issue:  "It does not bother me much...."  So yes, there are inherent issues with FG and they impact different people differently.  These are largely obscured the higher the native frame rate.  So I'm just not able to get around those with my low native rate of 30-35fps.   And I really am spoiled by perfection--except for the very high frame rate piece.  I have smooth animation, no artifacts of any kind, and can click my 2nd and back to 1st displays and nary a hiccough.   When we get around to 7800X3D or better, I can see if a super high rate is worth the issues that will remain, which I think now are more moving back and forth between the two screen as I think the glass cockpit issue and strobing high contrast scenarios will be much improved with the very high frame rate.

So sadly for me, after initial excitement I could get some more life out of my 9900K, I do find FG a colossal fail.  I did not expect this hence the disappointment.  That's not FG's fault, I just wasn't aware of the need to have the high native rate.  Why didn't I read alot about this here?  Because most buyers of 4090 also upgraded the base platform.   I did try the FG hack and if you saw my comment there it was basically that yes, the uber high rate is "seductive", i.e. certainly desirable.  But no way trading in that for these various artifacts I've described an nauseum!  For 4090, it's useful to have the VRAM and it will I'm sure cope much better with those types of clouds that can nail the GPU, which in my experience are rare but it happens.  I truly have had and do have perfect performance, however at the lower native rate.  No stutters, liquid smooth animation and panning.  This CPU won't last forever and it's already needing a little more voltage to downclocking every several months, but it's still very solid, just down at 4.9Ghz.

 

Edited February 24 by Noel

[Noel 4,576]

15 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

I also posted videos using FG in different scenarios.

If you recall your settings for video capture that might help.  Did you use GFE for capture, of so what settings?  As mentioned w/o FG the capture was fine, but with, severe tearing.  

[Noel 4,576]

I just did EHAM to EDDM w/o FG, and the entire flight was flawless.  No midflight performance degradation as I had which prompted me to make this post..,.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/642517-major-performance-deterioration-at-altitude-over-europe/

So during initial approach I decided to switch FG on.   It was really quite good--very little glass cockpit flickering so I am pleasantly surprised.  Perhaps whatever fixed the video capture also is involved here.

So I restarted the flight after a reboot, and that is when I did this video capture. I have no idea why but the video capture I just did was fine.  The video makes it look choppy, so kind of ignore that, just look at what I'm calling flicker and see if you can relate.  Also, the flicker is much worse in the video than on the screen.  What's also very strange was when I first loaded the flight w/ FG on, there was virtually zero flickering at the gate w/ panning.  It worsened to a point over time during the flight, but all in all wasn't a show stopper. 

Now what's troublesome is that the first flight w/o FG enabled was flawless.  But this restart w/ FG on, was fine for quite a while, then the very same issues happened by the time we got to cruise, as mentioned in my thread above:  major performance degradation.  One wonders of course if FG is playing a role with this as both prior attempts were with FG on, and both succumbed to major deterioration.

 

[Ixoye 1,855]

 That's how it looks for me as well if I cap my card, and I noted that it got worse during daytime in clear weather, the sunlight seems to amplifies the effect, the solution for me was to run the card without a cap + V-Sync on and Low Latency at Ultra in NVCP.

[Cpt_Piett 4,924]

5 hours ago, RJC68 said:

So far yes 86 fps has been easily achievable especially with the AutoLod app. At 86 fps the sim is incredibly smooth, smoother than what I see at 97 fps because of the tighter ftv and if there is any reasonable fluctuations then GSYNC takes care of it. 

C172 G1000 at a remote airport in Canada. With DLDSR at 5461x2880, I can reach 80FPS max. Setting native 4K and I get 120 FPS (which is the same as my monitor refresh rate). The difference in GPU load, temp and fan speeds are huge though: 

                               5461p 80FPS | 5461p 60FPS | 3840p 120 FPS | 3840p 60 FPS          

GPU load                  99%                        76%                  99%                   46%

GPU temp                 74                           70                      72                      63

GPU fan speed rpm  2170                     1840                   2050                 1410

What I've landed at so far (besides many different runways!) is 5461p 60FPS as the image quality is much better than 3840p + temps and fan speeds are acceptable.

I'm at my cooling limit with my current rig as I'm using 2 pumps + 2x360mm radiators to cool both CPU and motherboard (VRM + M.2). The i9-12900 runs hot, especially with HT on. When getting the 4090 in oct '22 I looked into the possibility of getting a waterblock, but couldn't find any at the time. This didn't matter though, as I don't have enough headroom to add the GPU to the loop. And I certainly don't have space in the case to add more radiators 😆

4 hours ago, Noel said:

If you recall your settings for video capture that might help.  Did you use GFE for capture, of so what settings?  As mentioned w/o FG the capture was fine, but with, severe tearing.  

I don't have GFE installed. Instead I use Xbox game bar @ high quality 60FPS (max settings). 

Edited February 24 by Cpt_Piett

[Noel 4,576]

1 hour ago, Ixoye said:

 That's how it looks for me as well if I cap my card, and I noted that it got worse during daytime in clear weather, the sunlight seems to amplifies the effect, the solution for me was to run the card without a cap + V-Sync on and Low Latency at Ultra in NVCP.

Very good thanks for trying that.  I think it's as I concluded, it's rate-related, and for reasons I can't explain it looks not bad at 60fps now both at EHAM in the 320n and also KDEN 738.  I've become so focused on perfection since that is my default now ever since DynamicLOD got rid of remaining stutters I'm probably a little more sensitive to this aberration, especially compared to people running the latest CPU to keep the rate up a little more.  It could be that so much changing yesterday between this setting and that confused not only me but my system!  I do try to reboot between changes but I'm sure I didn't here and there.   And using RTSS edge sync I can easily bump up rate as able.  In the AS CRJ probably easily can sustain 80+ fps which will help.

[Cpt_Piett 4,924]

5 hours ago, Noel said:

That's not FG's fault, I just wasn't aware of the need to have the high native rate.  Why didn't I read alot about this here?  Because most buyers of 4090 also upgraded the base platform.

Indeed this was the trap that I fell into. I got the 4090 at a very early stage, when not many reviews were available. Also, I might have been in a somewhat exalted state when clicking the purchase button... Had I had some more sobriety I would have probably been able to hold off. 

Luckily I had already upgraded to the 12900KF before getting the 4090, as part of a whole rig and watercooling loop upgrade. In 2019 I was able to get my hands on a i7-8086K Anniversary Pre-Binned 5.1Ghz from Overclockers UK which is probably the best CPU I've had so far. It had ample OC potential without running too hot. 

Edited February 24 by Cpt_Piett

[Fielder 3,834]

I have 4070 and 58003DX. If I switch FG on or off in the MSFS options, I see no more nor no less artifacts either way. Perhaps there are some there. If so, I have not ever noticed them.

the Ryzen 7 58003DX is currently $295 on Amazon USA site.

[Cpt_Piett 4,924]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

So I restarted the flight after a reboot, and that is when I did this video capture.

Thanks for sharing the video, Noel. I think what I'm seeing is the exact same "inherent FG-related" artifacts I've been talking about. 

In order to reproduce these infamous artifacts, I made a short video with FPS set at 30 (that's 15 native!). I think it becomes very apparent here and it's kinda logical as the FG AI-tech has so few frames to work with in order to generate those AI-frames that insert in between the native ones. @Noel do you agree that these artifacts are similar to what you're seeing?

Sorry for the horrendous quality - I'm running MSFS @ 5461p but max in game bar is 1080p 🤦‍♂️

 

Edited February 24 by Cpt_Piett

[Noel 4,576]

I'm also happy to report after taxiing halfway to Rwy08 at KDEN in the 738 was able to easily sustain 40/80fps, and indeed the aberration is even less apparent!  No surprise there.  Rather than wide open though, just moved the RTSS lock up to 80.

I don't know how to explain it but today, things are much better, at least w/ the exception of the EHAM EDDM flight where it deteriorated substantially w/ FG on, and not when w/o FG on the immediately prior same flight.  I have to guess this is yet another....red herring!   Server related perhaps.

Sorry for dragging everyone along with this but if this keeps up I'll def be able to use FG w/ the 9900K.  I might need to cope with more artifact in tough to process areas.  Also, at KDEN a bit ago, same location w/ with the strobing tarmac, this time at 1pm MST, zero strobing.  So some of these are related to time of day lighting effects as others have suggested.

Cheers and thanks ALL!  I hope I don't have to come back into this thread with more woes!

[Cpt_Piett 4,924]

11 minutes ago, Noel said:

Sorry for dragging everyone along with this

I hope I don't have to come back into this thread with more woes!

Nothing to be sorry about Noel! This thread made me re-investigate various issues and I now have a much better understanding of the FG tech and its limitations. More importantly, Richard and myself have agreed to buy you a beer which you very much deserve for sharing the brilliant RTTS edge sync method with us! 🍻