Flickering PMDG glass cockpits w/ panning w/ Nv FG?

[Noel 4,563]

It was you Cpt Piett, who turned me on to CapFrameX.  Then, year end 2022, I began meticulously testing all possible configurations of Vsync, locks, no locks, scanline sync, NVCP, etc and there was no question Edge Sync was the pathway to Nirvana.  I mean if it wasn't for VRAM I may well have not gone with 4090 for the FG.  People find that hard to believe and I know exactly why:  they never really gave this method a chance.  Though Richard says he did so presumably there are things that can sabotage this, I just don't know what they are.   The FPS of 60 or 70 is definitely a nice benefit but it's really the COMPLETE loss of ANY stuttering that is the real value in my upgrade to 4090, and I attribute that to VRAM.  Right now up in the air over Europe VRAM is at 13962.  Perhaps 2024 will optimize mem management and so obviate the need to go to 24Gb VRAM solutions.

[Cpt_Piett 4,818]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Right now up in the air over Europe VRAM is at 13962.  Perhaps 2024 will optimize mem management and so obviate the need to go to 24Gb VRAM solutions.

Currently in the Fenix en route from Minneapolis to Toronto at FL275 climbing to FL370 and VRAM used by MSFS is 16.9GB, total 21.4...

[Noel 4,563]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Currently in the Fenix en route from Minneapolis to Toronto at FL275 climbing to FL370 and VRAM used by MSFS is 16.9GB, total 21.4...

Wow...what else is using VRAM besides MSFS?

[RJC68 823]

5 minutes ago, Noel said:

Wow...what else is using VRAM besides MSFS?

Funny my VRAM always seems to sit around 15GB, currently at FL 360 over the southern UK in the Fenix A320 and I am seeing 14995 GB 

Edited February 21 by RJC68

[Cpt_Piett 4,818]

20 minutes ago, Noel said:

Wow...what else is using VRAM besides MSFS?

Good point! I'm beginning to question those values, as they are reported differently by different sources (Afterburner, task manager etc). 

[Noel 4,563]

I'm over Europe from EHAM to EDDM in the FBW320n and complete disruption with major stutters, pauses.  Tested my net connection and it's fine, as is my PC.  This is one of those scenarios where you have major CPU/GPU/VRAM headroom but complete loss of performance which means it's time to shut 'er down and go out for a walk!

Cheers

[Cpt_Piett 4,818]

40 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Good point! I'm beginning to question those values, as they are reported differently by different sources (Afterburner, task manager etc). 

After looking into this further, I think the Afterburner/RTSS values can be trusted for both system RAM and VRAM. Selecting "usage/process" for both RAM and VRAM in Afterburner and the usage values shown in the RTSS OSD corresponds very well with the dev mode FPS overlay. 

Current situation: Fenix, gate at FlyTampa's CYYZ - VRAM 15.8 / 24 and RAM 7.6 / 32. 

[Ixoye 1,837]

The highest VRAM usage I've seen so far is 15.5 GB with my a 3440X1440 monitor upscaled to 130% in the game, it's insane 😄

[Noel 4,563]

On 2/18/2024 at 11:34 AM, David Mills said:

FG on the Nvidia 4000 series cards is the most glorious invention since the Big Bang dawn of the cosmos

For the cost of it, I'm glad for you you're happy with it.  I've turned it OFF.  The flickering I saw after using FG for the first, 2nd and 20th time, despite every possible setup configuration, referenced by a multitude of users on the FS and another forum is a major deterioration in image stability and quality and no way I want to put up with that.  FG at 70 is a much worse experience than no FG at 35 with my method of frame pacing, which works fine with FG, but doesn't impact its artifacts.  I'm really shocked others here enamored with FG don't talk about it.  Again, not just me, have a read here, and in other threads there:

Flickering when Frame Generation is Turned On - User Support Hub / Hardware & Peripherals - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

Pushed back out of B35 at KDEN this morning, w/ the morning light coming in at about 8:30 MST, out the side the tarmac was literally strobing with any kind of panning motion.  Same same for all of glass panels in the PMDG 738.  I left it on anyway, with a frame rate of 70 (35x2).  Up in the air it was fine mainly because I wasn't looking at the glass panels when panning.  Upon approach into snowy KJAC the bright/dark contrast of snow tipped evergreen trees was an absolutely strobing.  There no question it helps to override some of these graphical aberrations that come with native FG to have ultra high rates of 100 or more, which is not possible with my hardware, except up at altitude.   All of these image quality degrading artifacts disappear when I turn FG off, thank God.  I just spent $1800 to pick up what amounts to 12 more GBs of VRAM, which helps of course.  But really, quite disheartened by this.  I'll have to be happy with that until a 7800X3D appears in my hardware config at which point ought to easy manage native rate of 45 or so, which w/o these lame artifacts is fine and dandy.  For now back to happy at ultra smooth, stable image, rate of 35.

[David Mills 4,774]

@Noel. Are you trying to use your excellent frame-time-stability tweak with your new 4090 and FG? We're not talking about flickering in VR, are we? 

The vast majority of 4090 users don't seem to suffer the issues you describe with FG. It's definitely a stretch to accuse those happy with FG of a cabal to hush up FG artifacting. My system -- which is built with completely-off-the-shelf parts by Jetline Systems -- handles FG perfectly. There is no artifacting whatever. (There used to be, however, before recent sim updates.) You know that in-sim VSYNC doesn't work with DX12 and FG enabled. You know that GSYNC only works properly with FG using a DP connector.

What brand of 4090 do you own? There is something, somewhere, hardware or software, causing these problems for you. Other simmers, as you've shown, suffer these problems as well. What is the commonality of those experiencing these issues? But most users don't suffer these problems. Instead of throwing in the towel, you need to continue teching this out -- as you've done so impressively in the past -- to isolate the problem. FG is not fundamentally and inherently flawed as you appear to imply. Something else is causing your issues.

[David Mills 4,774]

@Noel Could you possibly post a video of your current issues and point them out? I think that would help clarify things a lot. I hate it that you spent all that money and aren't enjoying good results.

[Noel 4,563]

30 minutes ago, David Mills said:

@Noel. Are you trying to use your excellent frame-time-stability tweak with your new 4090 and FG? We're not talking about flickering in VR, are we? 

The vast majority of 4090 users don't seem to suffer the issues you describe with FG. It's definitely a stretch to accuse those happy with FG of a cabal to hush up FG artifacting. My system -- which is built with completely-off-the-shelf parts by Jetline Systems -- handles FG perfectly. There is no artifacting whatever. (There used to be, however, before recent sim updates.) You know that in-sim VSYNC doesn't work with DX12 and FG enabled. You know that GSYNC only works properly with FG using a DP connector.

What brand of 4090 do you own? There is something, somewhere, hardware or software, causing these problems for you. Other simmers, as you've shown, suffer these problems as well. What is the commonality of those experiencing these issues? But most users don't suffer these problems. Instead of throwing in the towel, you need to continue teching this out -- as you've done so impressively in the past -- to isolate the problem. FG is not fundamentally and inherently flawed as you appear to imply. Something else is causing your issues.

I have a new Founders Edition.  Display Port, Gsync, 3 fps below 100Hz, no vsync, and doesn't matter if I use my method for producing ultra smooth animation, or not, the result is intimately tied to frame rate.    I can imagine just as Ixoye just told me he runs his wide open and that is in part due to getting rid of artifacts.   Unfortunately the best my 9900K can do at say EHAM in the 738 is around 64 fps  (2x32fps at the gate), and at that rate, the artifacts destroy any benefits from the faster frame rate.  

I'm pretty sure this is a function of my 9900K and trying to deal with its low native rate limits.  I had hoped to be able to run at my default 34fps or so, doubled to 68, but the artifacts aren't worth the higher rate.  Understand, it's just those issues in glass cockpits and high contrast scenery.  The interior cockpit and scenery all pan fine.   Up at cruise I can open it wide open and the glass cockpit flickering is much improved, but it doesn't matter nearly as much there, it matters on the ground, during taxi and near dense scenery.  

Your impressions are driven from a much stronger CPU, so no wonder.   I've read many posts about this issue now on Reddit, FS forum etc and it's pretty much a forgone conclusion you really need higher rates to get around this issue.  This person sums it up.  I actually did use 25 native x 2 = 50, and was initially impressed and discovered my FTV sync method worked great--no stutters, all good, except for the glass cockpits, and high contrast scenery.   Flying into KJAC with snow tipped evergreen trees was just nasty--could see it out my peripheral vision. 

You’re only getting ...50FPS in your video with FG on. That probably means the game is rendering at ...25 FPS natively. That’s very low and just isn’t enough for FG to work flawlessly. It needs more information to be able to interpolate. In other games you’re likely getting much higher FPS as a baseline.

NVIDIA recommends that FG only be used when your base framerate (without FG turned on) is 60fps or higher. It’s really intended to make 60+ fps smooth out into 90+ fps. <<<< this is probably your experience, and others with the CPU to drive this.

The other thing I find more than annoying is my second screen, which I use frequently in mid-flight.  When I am on that screen then return to the main MSFS display during flight when there is motion, I get a serious judder.  I tried matching Hz of each, no improvement.  This too is a function of FG enabled it goes completely away then.  Others report it, and they also report it doesn't bother them.  I'm really used to perfection so this is yet another degradation coming from FG.  For now I'm happy to have the VRAM there and it's clear it's being used in certain settings.  I will revisit FG when I decide to do a new build.

Here's a simple test you can do David:  go to KDEN, Gate B45, and pushback heading east at around 7:30-8am MST.  Lock your rate at 60fps (use RTSS, edge or async, not scanline, and set the rate to 60).  Tell me how panning the PMDG 73x is, and notice the tarmac out the left window and report what you see.  If it's ROCK SOLID STABLE image at that rate, then yes there's probably something amiss in my config or hardware--believe me, I'd love it, if what I'm seeing is resolvable with my current CPU.

 

 

[RJC68 823]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

For the cost of it, I'm glad for you you're happy with it.  I've turned it OFF.  The flickering I saw after using FG for the first, 2nd and 20th time, despite every possible setup configuration, referenced by a multitude of users on the FS and another forum is a major deterioration in image stability and quality and no way I want to put up with that.  FG at 70 is a much worse experience than no FG at 35 with my method of frame pacing, which works fine with FG, but doesn't impact its artifacts.  I'm really shocked others here enamored with FG don't talk about it.  Again, not just me, have a read here, and in other threads there:

Flickering when Frame Generation is Turned On - User Support Hub / Hardware & Peripherals - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

Pushed back out of B35 at KDEN this morning, w/ the morning light coming in at about 8:30 MST, out the side the tarmac was literally strobing with any kind of panning motion.  Same same for all of glass panels in the PMDG 738.  I left it on anyway, with a frame rate of 70 (35x2).  Up in the air it was fine mainly because I wasn't looking at the glass panels when panning.  Upon approach into snowy KJAC the bright/dark contrast of snow tipped evergreen trees was an absolutely strobing.  There no question it helps to override some of these graphical aberrations that come with native FG to have ultra high rates of 100 or more, which is not possible with my hardware, except up at altitude.   All of these image quality degrading artifacts disappear when I turn FG off, thank God.  I just spent $1800 to pick up what amounts to 12 more GBs of VRAM, which helps of course.  But really, quite disheartened by this.  I'll have to be happy with that until a 7800X3D appears in my hardware config at which point ought to easy manage native rate of 45 or so, which w/o these lame artifacts is fine and dandy.  For now back to happy at ultra smooth, stable image, rate of 35.

Hey Noel,

Are you sure this is not GSYNC flickering?

I have never seen FG cause this with my 4090. If the generated frames get a little out of whack in certain lighting I get a tiny amount of flickering and that is my Sony X90K not my 4090. GSYNC flickering can be bad on some displays. I tried an LG set (Non OLED) before this one and it was headache inducing. I barely get anything on this Sony

[Cpt_Piett 4,818]

3 hours ago, Noel said:

I'm really shocked others here enamored with FG don't talk about it.

Noel, I've referred to FG-artifacts both in this thread and elsewhere on this forum, going all the way back to autumn '22 when the RTX40-series launched. I also posted videos using FG in different scenarios.

Artifacts are an inherent side effect with FG due to AI-generated frames inserted in between native frames. It does not bother me much except when panning very fast, or when native FPS is low. 

I'm wondering if this flickering that you see is something else though. I think we're both on an eternal quest for the best image quality - however I find it strange that our perception differs so much on this topic. 

It would be easier to discuss this if you could either upload a video, or link to one somewhere on the internet. 

@Noel, is this similar to what you're seeing? 

https://youtu.be/92ZqYaPXxas?si=MZjOCCsQr_NlhoHt

Edited February 24 by Cpt_Piett

[Noel 4,563]

45 minutes ago, RJC68 said:

Hey Noel,

Are you sure this is not GSYNC flickering?

I have never seen FG cause this with my 4090. If the generated frames get a little out of whack in certain lighting I get a tiny amount of flickering and that is my Sony X90K not my 4090. GSYNC flickering can be bad on some displays. I tried an LG set (Non OLED) before this one and it was headache inducing. I barely get anything on this Sony

Nope, I can try disabling Gsync that is a good thought!