Frame generation in MSFS - the good and the bad

[Cpt_Piett 4,675]

23 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Interesting you say this, and I guess everything is system specific, but I have completely smooth frame times at 50 FG FPS.  Native that's 25fps, but absolutely smooth performance.  I can run at 60 FG fps,  but AutoFPS shows I am stuck around 100 TLOD.  Setting 50 FG FPS allows extra resource for more TLOD.  Interestingly, I can set 40 FG FPS (for more resources for TLOD) and still get completely smooth frame times.  Perhaps MSFS is well suited to low FG FPS as I haven't tried in any other games.

It could be lower than 30 native. It probably is since you’re running FG-FPS 50 without issues. And I think you’re right about MSFS vs more fast-paced games (well, MSFS is not a game but), where possibly higher native FPS is needed.

[brucewtb 249]

7 hours ago, Noel said:

The main artifacts associated with FG for me are strobing out the mostly side view at certain tarmacs, like FB's KDEN heading east out of a gate, like B45, in dawn light, when panning or moving.  It's really not good at all, but limited yes to certain lighting conditions.  Now add to that glass cockpit lines/symbols whenever you pan no matter what the speed:  they shimmer or are just unstable for lack of a better descriptor.   Compared to rock solid stable imagery, they're not good.  I've mentioned the 2-screen issue many times.  Doesn't matter if the 2nd screen is connected to the same GPU,. or the iGPU on the mainboard.  If I click something on my 2nd display, IOW make it active, then MSFS frame rate drops by maybe 40%.  That's not so bad but when returning to the main screen the judder is no good.  I'm spoiled by perfection in imagery.  

The CPU limits greatly how much traffic I can use w/ FSLTL, what I can set TLOD to, and also would let me set my base FPS lock from 36 to say 46 or so and retain all the wonderment of my current config.

Deleted - duplicate pst

Edited March 28 by brucewtb

[brucewtb 249]

6 hours ago, Noel said:

The main artifacts associated with FG for me are strobing out the mostly side view at certain tarmacs, like FB's KDEN heading east out of a gate, like B45, in dawn light, when panning or moving.  It's really not good at all, but limited yes to certain lighting conditions.  Now add to that glass cockpit lines/symbols whenever you pan no matter what the speed:  they shimmer or are just unstable for lack of a better descriptor.   Compared to rock solid stable imagery, they're not good.  I've mentioned the 2-screen issue many times.  Doesn't matter if the 2nd screen is connected to the same GPU,. or the iGPU on the mainboard.  If I click something on my 2nd display, IOW make it active, then MSFS frame rate drops by maybe 40%.  That's not so bad but when returning to the main screen the judder is no good.  I'm spoiled by perfection in imagery.  

The CPU limits greatly how much traffic I can use w/ FSLTL, what I can set TLOD to, and also would let me set my base FPS lock from 36 to say 46 or so and retain all the wonderment of my current config.

Noel I have a similar setup to you - 2 monitors a 9900Kf and a 4090 - but with FG at 4K I only see very minor judder when moving the mouse pointer from monitor to monitor.  I have only just noticed it after I went looking for it and it has never been a distraction in the past.  For me upgrading from 3080ti to a 4090 has been one of my better FS purchases and has enabled me to hang on to my 9900KF at least until MSFS2024 arrives and possibly beyond that.  Like you I have to limit traffic and TLOD but everything else is the Ultra preset or higher with a steady 60 FPS except at Inibulids KJFK (that is some heavy hitter of an airport).  I think the 24gb of VRAM helps FG to  cope with base FPS below 30 certainly better than FPS in the mid 20s at KJFK with my previous 3080ti and its 12gb of VRAM.

Bruce

Edited March 28 by brucewtb
New info

[GSalden 4,657]

4 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Interesting you say this, and I guess everything is system specific, but I have completely smooth frame times at 50 FG FPS.  Native that's 25fps, but absolutely smooth performance.  I can run at 60 FG fps,  but AutoFPS shows I am stuck around 100 TLOD.  Setting 50 FG FPS allows extra resource for more TLOD.  Interestingly, I can set 40 FG FPS (for more resources for TLOD) and still get completely smooth frame times.  Perhaps MSFS is well suited to low FG FPS as I haven't tried in any other games.

A new PC or upgrade is not near, but I'm still happy with my PC for now. Absolutely with Noel on this - smooth frame times equal a smooth and flyable sim with little difference between 40 or 60 FG FPS visually.

Well written.

If you are seeing 20 fps ( in your case 25 ) without any long frames and FG doubles that, then you will have a smooth sim.

As long as the total FPS is at least 30 ( some say 25 )….

[GSalden 4,657]

Here I am using large 4K TV’s as displays and they are running at 60 hertz.

If I limit MSFS to 57-60 ( incl FG ) than I see small stutters now and then, which I do not see when running MSFS at Unlimited.

Not using FG and running at 30 fps / Limited is less smooth, especially when banking or making turns. However, 2 displays are connected to the 4090.

[Vali 83]

During my tests I have seen for example 80 FPS constant (FG and as limited into NVCP to 80) but the 99% FPS was around 40fps in the active monitoring from Nvidia Geforce (going one time shortly even to 1fps), so the consistency and minimum constant fps is important and many times difficult to achieve.

[Noel 4,503]

10 hours ago, brucewtb said:

Noel I have a similar setup to you - 2 monitors a 9900Kf and a 4090 - but with FG at 4K I only see very minor judder when moving the mouse pointer from monitor to monitor.  I have only just noticed it after I went looking for it and it has never been a distraction in the past.  For me upgrading from 3080ti to a 4090 has been one of my better FS purchases and has enabled me to hang on to my 9900KF at least until MSFS2024 arrives and possibly beyond that.  Like you I have to limit traffic and TLOD but everything else is the Ultra preset or higher with a steady 60 FPS except at Inibulids KJFK (that is some heavy hitter of an airport).  I think the 24gb of VRAM helps FG to  cope with base FPS below 30 certainly better than FPS in the mid 20s at KJFK with my previous 3080ti and its 12gb of VRAM.

Bruce

I'm exceedingly pleased w/ the 4090 it's been a nice upgrade, the processing and the VRAM allows me to run at render scale 160 and that has markedly improved what was already very good IQ.  And has allowed me to bump up my based locked rate to 35-36 or so.  Since it's a matter of flipping FG on I tried again last evening after a couple of weeks of having FG off.  Initially it looked pretty decent, with modest artifacts in the glass cockpit as mentioned.   For reasons beyond comprehension that started getting more noticeable after a few minutes at the gate, panning the aircraft.  After pushback I turned on the taxi and runway turnoff lights on in the FBW320n, this was a dusk departure at KMSP, because lights illuminate the sides of the taxiway once again strobing happening with any motion or panning.  This is the same issue I got at KDEN at dawn.  The rate of 70FPS, doubled 35 w/ FG on, was nice.  But far nicer was getting rid of the artifacts when panning by once again disabling FG.   Bruce when you click on the 2nd display what happens to the frame rate on the main?  Once again here it was a drop of about 40%, then when clicking back on the main a modest judder.  It's all of these issues combined that has me disabling FG.  This really depends I think on how motion is happening and perhaps what is being clicked on on the 2nd display.  Anyway, I'm very happy at a rate of 35 right now at FB's KMSP again.  Would I rather see that doubled to 70 or 64 or what have you?  I would, but not for these aberrations it's just less desirable overall.  A new CPU will let me pump the base rate up to maybe 45, which is way good enough in terms of RATE and I have to think will provide that much more CPU overhead to cope with the occasional hiccough that can still happen.  This CPU has been worked very hard for 4y now with huge numbers of overclocked hours so getting time to retire it into my music workstation.  And who knows maybe more overhead fromn a 7800X3D will soften some of these aberrations.

[Cpt_Piett 4,675]

34 minutes ago, Vali said:

During my tests I have seen for example 80 FPS constant (FG and as limited into NVCP to 80) but the 99% FPS was around 40fps in the active monitoring from Nvidia Geforce (going one time shortly even to 1fps), so the consistency and minimum constant fps is important and many times difficult to achieve.

A very good point indeed! Those 1% and 0.1% lows can ruin an otherwise good simming session. Also - frame time consistency is always more important than FPS when it comes to how smooth the sim runs. I find that the best way to achieve very low frame time variance is to lock FPS using RTSS in front edge sync mode. 

My sweet spot is RTSS-locked at 80, G-Sync, V-Sync on in NCP, off in sim, ultra low latency in NCP. Things are then extremely smooth, responsive and snappy, even when panning around extremely fast. No artifacts.

If I'm aiming for the highest TLODs with AutoFPS, I let FPS run freely and set target FPS in the app to 65 or so. In remote areas the FG-FPS will then be way higher than the target FPS, and AutoFPS will crank up TLOD until my FPS is close to 65. Hence, sacrificing performance for extremely detailed terrain textures and mesh. 

At the heaviest airports with PG in the vicinity, I do get stutters, especially when panning around, even though FG-FPS is around 60 or so. Things are simply more sluggish. Which I have to accept if I want to fly into iniBuilds EGLL with AI traffic in the Fenix...

Edited March 28 by Cpt_Piett

[pilotter 254]

If only Asobo would implement this , so we AMD users can use it properly also. although I a m happy at the moment with my smooth fps without FG, but it is a bit ironic that it's not yet available for AMD

[FBW737 511]

I don't know! I've been using TV frame interpolation for about 4 years years now and I am not convinced that it is not the still best option. For all the fancy talk of AI etc in DLSS 3 it seem that there are still lots of people complaining about artifacts and stutters. I run MSFS at 4K with all the graphics setting maxed out with a 10900K and 3090 with the Vsync on and set my refresh rate to either 23hz or 29hz and thanks to the Samsung 4KTV Judder Reduction (frame interpolation) I get either 46 or 58fps on screen.

Either way its perfectly smooth and I hardly ever see a stutter. Granted I have had a long time to tweak it, especially the TrackIR profile. But all in all my experience with this approach to frame generation is monumentally superior to the dlssg-to-fsr3 mod ( I can't imagine how bad someones sim experience was if it was improved after the addition of that mod!🤣). And by the sound of it, I suspect in many cases it's better than Nvidia FG.

Anyone using a modern TV for display purposes with MSFS owes it to themselves to try it! There are a ton of Pros and no cons that I can see.

[HiFlyer 9,360]

21 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Are people distracted by the artifacts?

Not i, but it's precisely because of such issues that I use dlss switcher to advance to the (hopefully) most recently optimized version of the tech...

[Fielder 3,680]

I move the mouse from screen to screen and don't see any jitters, I always have FG on.

I'm using ncp surround with bezel correction turned on. And running MSFS in window mode covering 1-1/2 of the double wide display on two monitors. The other 1/2 of the right monitor is reserved for other programs, like maps or the internet.

The only distraction is that control inputs don't work when the mouse pointer is off the MSFS window.

But I don't see any pause or jitter moving the mouse off and onto the MSFS window.

The wide screen experience spoils my appreciation of 16:9 which seems less immersive.

 

 

 

 

[Cpt_Piett 4,675]

1 hour ago, HiFlyer said:

Not i, but it's precisely because of such issues that I use dlss switcher to advance to the (hopefully) most recently optimized version of the tech...

Agree, it makes a lot of sense to always have the latest DLSS version. 

[Ojisan_alpha 5]

23 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

I've been flight simming for more than 25 years. I've custom-built PC's for just as long. Performance has always been a problem. The most game-changing upgrade I've ever done was getting the 4090. 

Comments? Is it worth getting a RTX40-series card? Are people distracted by the artifacts?

Hopefully this thread will generate some discussion as FG seems to be a very hot topic.

Having some in-depth direct comparisons between my 5900x/3090Ti (FSR3 software Frame Generation) and several nearly identical systems with 4090's, I can say that the 3090Ti has 10-15 percent less fps in the worst case and sometimes even better fps than the 4090.

FG rules, even if it's only the inofficial software version.

[FBW737 511]

57 minutes ago, Ojisan_alpha said:

even if it's only the inofficial software version

I don't know how anyone can say that. Although the dlssg-to-fsr3 mod (I assume that is what you are talking about here) does deliver the extra frames its a stutter and ghosting of menus mess. 30fps without it is far far superior to 60fps with it. At least for anyone who knows what they are doing! I thinkered with it for about a month up to and including the current version and it simply doesn't work in MSFS. It may work very well indeed in other titles. I don't know. But even the developer acknowledged that it has problems in MSFS.

Edited March 28 by FBW737