Why MSFS must be XBox like or die

[F737MAX 5,738]

Making MSFS more 'Xbox-like' has given us the most realistic helicopters in the MS flight sim franchise to-date.

It's also given us:

• the cheapest and most feature rich A320
• the most realistic Garmin units for free
• the entire world in photoscenery rather than landclass textures
• multiple new payware developers pushing our expectations of paid products higher
• the most freeware content since the flight sim genre was in its previous heyday some 20-odd years ago.

IMO, the benefits from making MSFS appeal to the Xbox crowd far outweigh the negatives.

[bofhlusr 465]

2 hours ago, GaryK said:

You're right........this is one for Hangar Chat👍

In my humble opinion, this is primarily a discussion of MSFS possible future.

Granted, some also discuss the current state of MSFS and compare it to the past and how far it has progressed in trying to figure out what the future might hold for MSFS and the hobby generally.

[GaryK 201]

22 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

In my humble opinion, this is primarily a discussion of MSFS possible future.

Granted, some also discuss the current state of MSFS and compare it to the past and how far it has progressed in trying to figure out what the future might hold for MSFS and the hobby generally.

Hence my last comment👍

[Dominique_K 10,152]

2 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Making MSFS more 'Xbox-like' has given us the most realistic helicopters in the MS flight sim franchise to-date.

It's also given us:

• the cheapest and most feature rich A320
• the most realistic Garmin units for free
• the entire world in photoscenery rather than landclass textures
• multiple new payware developers pushing our expectations of paid products higher
• the most freeware content since the flight sim genre was in its previous heyday some 20-odd years ago.

IMO, the benefits from making MSFS appeal to the Xbox crowd far outweigh the negatives.

Very true, the benefits are overwhelming compared to some drawbacks ( UI, clouds ?). Adding that from the start (FS1, FS4 etc.) the franchise has had an entertainment dimension besides the simulation.

[ha5mvo 261]

Truth is, that anything default is just garbage. This is the case across all platforms and isn’t unique to msfs (and no, inibuilds stuff is light years from being top tier as some here repeatedly suggest).

As a matter of fact, there are only a handful of addons that come close to being simulation rather than toys and their developers accomplish that in spite rather than because of whatever genetic tools they are offered.

Ideally, a platform should offer flexibility and accessibility instead of requiring hacks and clumsy workarounds as well as a steady stable target. In that regard, msfs has still got a long way to go.

[F737MAX 5,738]

52 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

compared to some drawbacks ( UI, clouds ?)

Don't get me wrong, I can certainly find plenty of annoyances in MSFS in addition to UI and perma cumulus in live weather, e.g.: Ground handling like it's icy in the dry, sticky when it's wet. Nearly every graphics setting found in previous ESP sims is now tied to the TLOD slider. AI traffic having an outsized performance hit on everyone's hardware, etc...

 

Us proper flight simmers™ (and I can be just as guilty) on here need to remember that MSFS isn't for irl flight training. The gliding experience is woefully wrong according to glider pilots, there's little to no peril in flying in marginal conditions, let alone storms, and ILS glideslopes and PAPI lights are often severely misaligned.

Other flight training platforms exist to cater to hours-building, recurrent training or practising normal and/or emergency and abnormal procedures.

However, I love that flight sim 'default' now includes Garmin equipment and recreation of other avionics previously only found in payware. I can come relatively close to the experience of flight (especially with certain add-ons) on an incredible platform that's technologically and visually light years ahead of others. One that receives very regular updates, where the devs try to incorporate the more technical aspects of flying, and most importantly, is a lot of fun!

 

tl;dr  Don't be guilty of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's certainly not perfect and remember, MSFS2020 is an entertainment product first and foremost. Yet it has incorporated and continues to try to include the intricacies of flight. On home hardware. For just $60 – $120.

[fsiscool 252]

1 hour ago, ha5mvo said:

Truth is, that anything default is just garbage.

How would you call any payware G1000 out there which is worse than the default one in this sim?

[abrams_tank 7,474]

40 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

However, I love that flight sim 'default' now includes Garmin equipment and recreation of other avionics previously only found in payware.

For some of the Garmin add-ons in MSFS, I don't think you can even find better payware because none exist that are better.  The G1000 NXi, G3000, G5000, and G3X are the best add-ons available in MSFS, and you can't even buy a better add-on (short of the the real thing) if you had all the money in the world.

[abrams_tank 7,474]

2 minutes ago, fsiscool said:

How would you call any payware G1000 out there which is worse than the default one in this sim?

Well said! I would like to hear @ha5mvo's response. Is there a better payware G1000 than the one in MSFS? What about a better payware G3000, G5000, or G3X add-on? Maybe @ha5mvo can point us to a better payware version add-on of the G1000 NXi, G3000, G5000, and G3X, than the default ones in MSFS. I won't be holding my breath though 🤣

Edited April 5 by abrams_tank

[lwt1971 7,457]

1 hour ago, ha5mvo said:

Truth is, that anything default is just garbage. This is the case across all platforms and isn’t unique to msfs (and no, inibuilds stuff is light years from being top tier as some here repeatedly suggest).

As a matter of fact, there are only a handful of addons that come close to being simulation rather than toys and their developers accomplish that in spite rather than because of whatever genetic tools they are offered.

Ideally, a platform should offer flexibility and accessibility instead of requiring hacks and clumsy workarounds as well as a steady stable target. In that regard, msfs has still got a long way to go.

Truth is, you keep spewing the usual nonsense as if repeating it enough times makes it true.. "anything default is just garbage" 😂. You might find that to be the case for other sim platforms but MSFS sorry no. The default avionics like G1000Nxi, G3000, G5000 and now the G3X are "just garbage"? Far from, and in fact better than previous payware .. the default AAU/SU-enhanced aircraft like the CJ4, Citation Longitude, 787, Cirrus SR22T etc are "just garbage"? Nope, they are far better in fidelity than any default aircraft for any other sim past and present. And these, including the free iniBuilds-contracted A310 and A320 while not being at the level of top-tier payware high fidelity aircraft (which no one ever claims), are still medium fidelity at worst and unprecedented for default aircraft, and far from garbage.

What development experience do you have for MSFS to keep repeating this "MSFS requires hacks and clumsy workarounds" talking point? Please share with us your deep technical and development expertise as to why "MSFS has still a long way to go" and give us specific examples of hacks and clumsy workaround 🙂 Actual developers, with actual expertise, seem to be doing fine.. like, pretty much all the top tier aircraft developers out there who're exclusively or mostly developing for MSFS. Yes PMDG had initial difficulties due to their particular situation of wanting to use their C++ codebase with WASM (and release for both PC and XBox) that got resolved later, and yes Fenix had to develop their own engine model because the default one wasn't detailed enough... which is par for the course with all sims and Fenix were able to develop it without the platform blocking it. A2A wanted to build everything custom and they did so without the platform blocking them. In addition to these devs, there are countless other examples of top tier developer either building bespoke, or using the default, or extending the default aspects of the sim. If you want to pick on weather not being open yet , well ya, it is what it is, but that doesn't make the whole platform inflexible.
 

Edited April 5 by lwt1971

[HiFlyer 9,375]

1 hour ago, F737MAX said:

AI traffic having an outsized performance hit on everyone's hardware, etc

FS-Traffic really does have only a relatively tiny hit......

[eslader 1,816]

5 hours ago, Lonesome Cowboy Burt said:

Conversely, if a company sees its getting more sales from the trash then it starts biasing towards providing trash

If MSFS were a closed ecosystem where only Microsoft-produced addons were allowed, that'd probably be true. But it's not. 3PDs could release 50-million steaming piles of junk, and there would still be room for vendors who wanted to make better products.

I don't see PMDG or Leonardo ever going the Captain Sim route. You're always going to have "boutique" or "luxury" product makers in any market space that won't be interested in chasing volume because they do very well chasing high-end sales. Walmart sells a lot more jewelry than Cartier, but that's not going to alter Cartier's business model any. 😉

 

 

[Krakin 5,850]

5 hours ago, Lonesome Cowboy Burt said:

Conversely, if a company sees its getting more sales from the trash then it starts biasing towards providing trash

Well 2024 is going to have a fleet of payware level default aircraft so I guess we know what Asobo has chosen. Also keep in mind that the best selling product on the MSFS marketplace has been a PMDG 737...

[Dominique_K 10,152]

2 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Don't get me wrong, I can certainly find plenty of annoyances in MSFS 

 

tl;dr  Don't be guilty of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  

Many imperfections , some annoying , but few seem related to the XBox constraints  besides clouds and UI. This was my point. 

I am reaching an age where there are so many things that I am guilty of that I don't count them anymore 😋....

[Krakin 5,850]

3 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

besides clouds and UI.

To be fair, there's nothing that indicates that the current issues with live weather clouds are related to Xbox constraints. SU5 (the Xbox update) introduced a color banding issue that was later fixed. The real problems started with SU7's METAR injection which introduced the horrific ball shaped CBs which was then partially fixed with what we have today. The overly transparent clouds we have now are slated to be fixed soon. I'm hoping it will happen in SU15 but that is unlikely.