33 minutes ago, Noel said:

but it's a delusion nonetheless

And what exactly is the delusion? That most professional airliner pilot agree that some sims have more realistic flight dynamics? Or that dekstop-simmer think they are real pilots because they are flying desktop-sims?

39 minutes ago, Noel said:

until you strap yourself into a real plane and go fly it, you're another "sim-gamer", any way you slice it.

That's not really another take from what I said. This is so obviously true as to be a tautology. For the record, I think few of us are under the delusion that playing Counterstrike will qualify us for anti-terrorism combat duty either.

The game vs sim discussion is silly not because Avsim is filled with deluded lunatics who think they're line captains because they bought a PMDG plane, because that's not true. The game vs sim discussion is silly because flight simulators are both. They're games that simulate flying. No, we can't get a pilot's license from playing them, but there is a distinction and a skill gap between games like MSFS or DCS and games like Ace Combat, and it doesn't detract from your pilot mystique to acknowledge that.

I'll also point out that some of us would love to "strap ourselves into a real plane and go fly it," but if you hadn't noticed, aviation is ruinously expensive. Cirrus wants almost a million bucks for a single-engine prop. Even a 50-year old outdated plane that's halfway decent costs more than some luxury cars. And then there's the $6+/gallon fuel, the annuals, the landing fees, the storage fees, etc etc etc. Until that changes, and that probably won't happen until everyone reading this forum is long dead if ever, then no matter how much most of us would love to take you up on that challenge, it's simply not realistic. I need to maintain a house, support the family and save for retirement. I can afford to sim. I could technically afford to fly, but not without sacrificing things that shouldn't be sacrificed.

 

12 minutes ago, eslader said:

That's not really another take from what I said.

Umm...."Let me offer up another take on "training", game v sim, and "who cares"."  I don't know what you're arguing for we both agree all users are sim-gamers.  Some who want to state "their sim" is a sim, and not a game, was the target of my comment, and was a response to your comment, "but I'd be very happy if people would stop making post after post arguing over whether it's a sim or a game...."

23 minutes ago, eslader said:

I'll also point out that some of us would love to "strap ourselves into a real plane and go fly it," but if you hadn't noticed, aviation is ruinously expensive

Duh.  My statement was rhetorical only aimed at pointing out until you're actually flying in the RW you're no closer to being a real pilot regardless of which sim-game you use, that's all.

57 minutes ago, Noel said:

Duh.  My statement was rhetorical only aimed at pointing out until you're actually flying in the RW you're no closer to being a real pilot regardless of which sim-game you use, that's all.

That‘s not entirely true. In all the years using sims, i‘ve learned a lot that helped me for real flying. My instructor was impressed by all what I already knew. I don‘t think anyone argues about being a real pilot when using only sims but it makes you definitively „closer“ to one than someone having never used any of the sims, except if you just want to mess around and do stupid things. I am very happy that sims have become pretty realistic nowadays and I see them for what there are: sims. Doesn‘t mean they reproduce 100% of the real flying of course.

11 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

That‘s not entirely true. In all the years using sims, i‘ve learned a lot that helped me for real flying. My instructor was impressed by all what I already knew

So did my first CFI say about me .

20years ago...using FS2000 and FS2004. The fidelity was good enough even back then. I can't even begin to imagine how much advantage MSFS users has towards non simmers.

 

2 hours ago, Franz007 said:

That‘s not entirely true.

Perhaps I wasn't clear--what I meant is that from my POV any of the sims is as good as any other when it comes down to learning, in terms of EVERYTHING possible to learn in a desktop sim, in very large part.  While flight dynamics are believed to be better aligned w/ reality that is a very small piece of all that can be learned using any of the major sims.  And further, even superior flight dynamics miss the entire feel of RW flying--you'll be hardly better prepared than the user of the allegedly less accurate flight dynamic modeling.  

Edited April 6, 20242 yr by Noel

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear--what I meant is that from my POV any of the sims is as good as any other when it comes down to learning, in terms of EVERYTHING possible to learn in a desktop sim, in very large part.  While flight dynamics are believed to be better aligned w/ reality that is a very small piece of all that can be learned using any of the major sims.  And further, even superior flight dynamics miss the entire feel of RW flying--you'll be hardly better prepared than the user of the allegedly less accurate flight dynamic modeling.  

I struggle to understand how better flight dynamics wouldn't make it better for training. Thats why for example level-D sims try to model very accurately the reaction of an aircraft under every possible conditions. That's what really matters for training.

Edited April 6, 20242 yr by Franz007

Well sure a full motion fully featured simulator is vastly different from a desktop sim-game no surprises there.  That's why when my neighbor who flew several single and twins commercially hired on to Frontier recently to fly Airbus they didn't tell him to go log hours on....XPlane, or any other desktop sim-game.  After all the didactics it was straight into the full motion Airbus simulator which absolutely models the feel part where flight dynamics accuracy does matter.  We don't model the feel part in very large part in the desktop sim-games this is why flight dynamics plays only a minor part in a desktop sim-game, and is therefore only a small piece of what can be learned in these sim-games, and why all the major sims are essentially equally useful as a a training aid with so much also depending on the controls one uses and the planes one operates.  I know I've learned an incredible amount about aviation and flying as a lay person.  My kids and wife once asked me if they thought I could manage flying an airliner, Ted Striker style, should the need suddenly arise.  My answer was as you might expect:  I'd certainly have a lot better shot than probably most other passengers in the plane!  And as an avid fan of Self Loading Cargo I'd have a shot at helping the cabin crew believe I might know what I'm doing 🤣

Edited April 6, 20242 yr by Noel

On 4/2/2024 at 11:06 AM, GaryK said:

It's fair to say that there is less innovation in most things these days. It's a sign of the times and all part of the decline of the West. 

I see reduced innovation in nearly everything........in the shops, in fashion, in the arts and in PC games. Most businesses do not want to go out on a limb for fear of making a mistake. The more they have to lose the more caution.

There is still some innovation, just not as much as us us 60 somethings were used to.

What a strange post. You have self-driving electric cars, private-sector rocket ships that move payload and people into space, useful and pervasive artificial intelligence, virtual reality, and 100" OLED TVs are no big deal. You wear a computer on your wrist and in your pocket with more power than the main-frame servers once used to run entire companies. You can buy a professional drone at your local electronics store. You can connect to the Internet at gigabit speeds to stream movies, games, and TV on any device - from anywhere, at any time. You can travel around the entire world with one stop in today's Airbus and Boeing aircraft. But yet you say there is LESS INNOVATION in most things these days.

But I think your post sums up the glass is mostly empty attitude that has made Avsim a meme (at least the Avsim as it exists today). Talk about innovation; we have MSFS 2020 that gives an entire photorealistic world. We're flying high-fidelity aircraft that actual pilots can use as training aids. We have CPUS and GPUs that can run all of this at 100 fps, with everything on Ultra, not the 10 FPS we would struggle to get in FSX. Perfect? No. But I'm in AWE of what I see in front of me, when we are so close to what we used to dream was possible when all we had was a few pixels on a monochrome screen in FS2, and we had to use our imagination that the square blocks were actually downtown Chicago or New York City and that grinding noise coming out of the speaker was a high-bypass-ration turbofan...but yet I'm told there just is no innovation.

You just have to sit and shake your head. 

Mike T

Edited April 6, 20242 yr by Mike T

58 minutes ago, Noel said:

We don't model the feel part in very large part in the desktop sim-games this is why flight dynamics plays only a minor part in a desktop sim-game

According to the navigraph-survey it‘s actually the number 1 most important part in a desktop-sim. And even level-D sims aren‘t perfect. No simulator ever will give you the feeling of flying in real.

And there are actually professional airliner-pilots who use one of these desktop-sims to train for their checkrides and they are very aware of the differences in accuracy of the flightmodel.

But are you saying at the end that Asobo shouldn‘t improve MSFS‘s flightmodel because it won‘t change anything anway?

Edited April 6, 20242 yr by Franz007

32 minutes ago, Mike T said:

But I think your post sums up the glass is mostly empty attitude that has made Avsim a meme (at least the Avsim as it exists today). Talk about innovation; we have [...]

Without wanting to get too far off topic, I think it's linked to an understanding (or not) of people interacting (or not) with new tech.

What you listed as innovative is 'all just computing' to some people. Without nuance, computing can be bucketed in one field. Whereas the benefits from 'computing' are still exponential and appear that way to anyone who uses new(er) tech regularly.

For instance, whether you love or loathe them, I can hire an e-bike/e-scooter from any street in London where they've been parked/dumped via my smartphone, using 5G mobile data, paying using my virtual debit card, and unlocking it with the rental company's app. Not so long ago, all of that would have been considered 'magic'. If you don't see/interact with that sort of less physical innovation, you can easily think progress has stalled.

8 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

If you don't see/interact with that sort of less physical innovation, you can easily think progress has stalled

Yesterday, I found and contacted an old friend that I had not seen in years. She told me she was not on facebook (she hated all of that, much like many members here) and she had neither a computer nor a tablet (she had given the one gifted her away) and no interest in either. She had the same phone with the same number she had had years ago, and that was all she needed or wanted.

Later, I reflected that for her, she was till technologically in about the year 1980, and that was pretty much what I expected.

(Still love her!)

14 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

(Still love her!)

Of course you should, she just has different needs and interests.

I suppose it's somewhat similar to people who love being outside as much as possible. They probably cannot fathom how we could spend so much time indoors looking at a recreation of the outdoors! 😅

 

Dragging the thread somewhat back on topic, I absolutely cannot stand 'Xbox' / 'gamer' products by CaptainSim or Bredok.

Nevertheless, in 2023's MSFS Marketplace sales, CaptainSim's products are rated Bronze and Bredok's 737MAX and F-22 Raptor both achieved Gold status (top-25). That means they're very popular... 🤷‍♂️

The upside for serious flight simmers is that about 30% of the retail price of CS' and Bredok's add-ons goes to MS as an admin/broker fee, which in turn goes into funding further MSFS development. And as we've seen, that development includes some rather technical and complex attempts at improving the various aspects of flight.

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

According to the navigraph-survey it‘s actually the number 1 most important part in a desktop-sim

That a survey showed that desktop sim-game users believe that flight dynamics is number 1 does not imply it plays the or even a critical role in learning all there is to know about flying, it's one feature of many.  Let's also get clear about something since we can agree none are perfect even the highest level.  On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is absolute fidelity in a full-motion simulator since that is the best to convey the feel and actions of RW flight dynamics, how would you rate MSFS, and how would you rate XP, and throw in P3D as desired, in pure desktop form, i.e. w/o robust cockpit layouts, just you and the screen.