7 hours ago, Franz007 said:

That’s what I do. I do fly real planes. And the last time i wanted to use MSFS for doing the same flight I did irl, it was a very bad result and the plane behaving in no way like i am used to.

Quote

It was actually a real world B787-pilot, demonstrating the MSFS B787. When asked he complained about the lack of inertia-simulation.

My lord.

I'm sure that real pilots, of which I count myself, would never use a domestic flight simulator and expect it in any way to depict the experience of actually flying an aircraft.   Flight simulation is pixels moving around on a screen.  It is physically impossible to convey inertia in a flight sim.     "Making the pixels move slower" is not the same as depicting inertia.

The entire basis of your point seems to be "real pilot youtuber XXXX said this and said that...".  I think you are seriously misrepresenting the real life airline pilots that also happen to use MSFS on YouTube.   I do not believe any professional airline pilot would state that they "use MSFS to help with a forthcoming checkride - not just for procedural elements but fot the flying experience as well" 😊😁😆    

Provide the time-stamped quote in a video where V1-pilot said this..... or it didn't happen.

You appear fixated on your opinions as being facts and are wholly closed off from engaging in open debate.

As Wyman-HD alluded, this is the most obvious trolling / rage bait I've seen in a long time.

Edited April 10, 20242 yr by JYW

6 minutes ago, JYW said:

Flight simulation is pixels moving around on a screen.  It is physically impossible to convey inertia in a flight sim.     "Making the pixels move slower" is not the same as depicting inetia.

I'm not a pilot or a dev. But what exactly is 'inertia' in aviation?  Again, I'm not a pilot, but when you apply brakes, and there is a very slight delay in the plane before it actually halts to full stop, isn't that delay also inertia? If that is the case, couldn't the slight delay or inertia be coded in flight sims? Thanks.

27 minutes ago, bofhlusr said:

I'm not a pilot or a dev. But what exactly is 'inertia' in aviation?  Again, I'm not a pilot, but when you apply brakes, and there is a very slight delay in the plane before it actually halts to full stop, isn't that delay also inertia? If that is the case, couldn't the slight delay or inertia be coded in flight sims? Thanks.

Inertia is the inherent energy an object carries, in it's direction of travel.   When the direction of travel is changed, there will be some resistance caused by the object's inertia. These are my own words, so you'll find something far more comprehensive and eloquent via Google 😄

My point was really just that where true, real world physics are concerned, there are limits as to how those physical events can be interpretted (rather than translated) to pixels moving on our screens.   Flight sims are amazing for practicing procedures that might be used in the real world.   The first time I ever flew an aircraft (in the real world) with a G1000 suite, my check pilot was amazed at how much I could do with the device, from the get go.   That initial knowledge was gained solely from X-Plane's G1000. 😄   That G1000 in X-Plane was by no means perfect or fully-functional, but I was able to grasp a good amount of knowledge in how to navigate and 'do the basics', to then apply that to the real unit.     But simulating aerodynamics and inertia is a whole different ball game.   You never get that 'seat of the pants' feeling that you get when controlling a real aircraft, in a desktop simulator.   The visual cues are pretty good.  The hand to eye coordination is similar.    But the lack of cues coming into the brain from the inherent movement is very obvious and apparant.

Edited April 10, 20242 yr by JYW

1 hour ago, JYW said:

My point was really just that where true, real world physics are concerned, there are limits as to how those physical events can be interpretted (rather than translated) to pixels moving on our screens.  

This is the crux. It is also true of every racing or driving simulator I have "played". Although the inertia can be modeled 100% based on the cars weight, suspension resistance, tire pressure and compound, track material, moisture - the moment the car loses traction must be "guessed", unlike the actual feeling of being on the threshold of it in real life. Even brake modeling cannot replace the feeling of the moment you know the box in the back seat is going to lose grip in the car and head towards the windshield. 

Edited April 10, 20242 yr by OneOfMany

5 hours ago, JYW said:

I'm sure that real pilots, of which I count myself, would never use a domestic flight simulator and expect it in any way to depict the experience of actually flying an aircraft.

Here we go again…the fact that it will never depict the same feeling as a real flight is given by it’s name; it is a simulator. I am talking about the acurate behaviour of a plane based on simulated physics. The fact that we will not feel any acceleration in a sim has nothing to do with the discussed point. No one is talking about those aspects.

37 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

The fact that we will not feel any acceleration in a sim has nothing to do with the discussed point. No one is talking about those aspects.

Sorry, but you started it yourself a few pages back:

 

12 hours ago, Franz007 said:

That’s what I do. I do fly real planes. And the last time i wanted to use MSFS for doing the same flight I did irl, it was a very bad result and the plane behaving in no way like i am used to

The best bet for  you is  to uninstall msfs  since  you keep  saying it  has  bad  results  and  stick  with  xp,   since  by  now  you  are  just  trolling  the  msfs  forum. 

Using a flight sim is like watching p*rn. It's not real. And no amount of messing around with the system is going to make it real. Or even realistic.

And the first person to mention multiplayer mode  .  .  .

Flight simulator + imagination = The Real 'Experience' . 

Even if the simulation is on a zx81, Amiga or C64 if you let your brain fill in the gaps the little details don't matter. Dreams seem real because even though they are 100% fake the imagination gets full access to our mind without our logic, reasoning and cynicism spoiling the fun. 

To make it feel 'real' you have to WANT it to be and allow aforementioned imagination to do what it's good at: filling in the gaps.

I KNOW I'm waggling several pieces of plastic in front of a gazillion lines of typed code displaying thousands of tiny dots on a fake window into the world while my neighbour mows his lawn, the kids fight next door and a computer fan drowns out the sample of a Rolls Royce jet engine being played through my 20 dollar Argos /Target desktop speakers but I don't care! For me and thousands of others it's ALWAYS as real as it gets (or ever will lol!). 

Enjoy your flying desktop captains ✈️😁

Can you practice stuff in MSFS/P3D/DCS/etc and take that practice into real flying = Yes. 

Can you practice stuff in iRacing/RF2/AMS2/etc and take that practice into real racing = Yes.

Can you practice stuff in Elden Ring/RDR2/FarCry/etc and take that practice into the real world = Probably, Probably Not!

3 hours ago, SierraDelta said:

Sorry, but you started it yourself a few pages back:

 

Not really. You linked a comment that has nothing to do with that.

3 hours ago, pete_auau said:

The best bet for  you is  to uninstall msfs  since  you keep  saying it  has  bad  results  and  stick  with  xp,   since  by  now  you  are  just  trolling  the  msfs  forum. 

The best for you is to scroll back and follow the core-discussion. You guys decided it to make into a sim-war, not me. The point was about the importance of an accurate simulated FM and how it impacte real flying and vice-versa. Good irony to see you using the word „troll“.

43 minutes ago, MarcG said:

Can you practice stuff in Elden Ring/RDR2/FarCry/etc and take that practice into the real world = Probably, Probably Not!

There's been a couple of studies that modern games that focus on complex and diverse areas such as the one you mentioned has actual psychosocial benefits. Games might not have tangible affects like simulators you mentioned but they more than showcase their affects in the real world.

I STRESS I am not saying games taught me or steered all my skills in life (you still need a balance like all things), they're just, to me, good ways at conveying difficult topics or skills in a way that can keep someone engaged.

9 hours ago, JYW said:

Inertia is the inherent energy an object carries, in it's direction of travel.   When the direction of travel is changed, there will be some resistance caused by the object's inertia. These are my own words, so you'll find something far more comprehensive and eloquent via Google 😄

My point was really just that where true, real world physics are concerned, there are limits as to how those physical events can be interpretted (rather than translated) to pixels moving on our screens.   Flight sims are amazing for practicing procedures that might be used in the real world.   The first time I ever flew an aircraft (in the real world) with a G1000 suite, my check pilot was amazed at how much I could do with the device, from the get go.   That initial knowledge was gained solely from X-Plane's G1000. 😄   That G1000 in X-Plane was by no means perfect or fully-functional, but I was able to grasp a good amount of knowledge in how to navigate and 'do the basics', to then apply that to the real unit.     But simulating aerodynamics and inertia is a whole different ball game.   You never get that 'seat of the pants' feeling that you get when controlling a real aircraft, in a desktop simulator.   The visual cues are pretty good.  The hand to eye coordination is similar.    But the lack of cues coming into the brain from the inherent movement is very obvious and apparant.

I'm not a real life pilot but I can imagine that students trying to get familiar with the avionics used in their planes have a huge advantage if they can master the same avionics in the flight simulator. That's why I think the work that Working Title is doing, making the GA avionics in MSFS so high fidelity, is a huge bonus. Not only do the real life pilots appreciate the quality of the GA avionics that Working Title have done, but I can imagine many student pilots are benefiting from Working Title's work.

Since you mentioned XP's avionics, Austin said he wanted to get the G3X in XP 12 in an interview with OrbX almost 2 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/live/X5sFJu6h-as?si=8th3NqfBqx3dDaXo&t=6176

The irony is, MSFS beat XP at getting the G3X.  This is the testament of the excellent work that Working Title have done! I can imagine if you are a student learning to fly (learning to fly a small plane of course)  and you want to get familiar with the avionics in your small plane, and Working Title has done one of the GA avionics that your plane is using, you would probably benefit by tinkering with avionics that Working Title have done.

 

Edited April 10, 20242 yr by abrams_tank

Maybe back to the original topic of this thread.

Jörg Neumann made it very clear that MSFS will be made accessible to everybody who is interested in the sensation of flight and aviation in general. And he also made it very clear that he will not turn this into a Xbox style arcade game. Mainly because the sensation of flying requires fidelity in all related areas to be convincing. This is his mindset and the only way to make flight simulation a viable product at Microsoft.

I do not enjoy Reno, Maverick or Dune but I can live with it. The product of full of compromises that come with this approach.

You may like it or not. if you are looking for a simulator fully focused on certain use cases, such as to prepare for a checkride in a B787, or to recreate all aspects of flight physics to the limit then this is the wrong product for you.

I fly a little old C152 and even if the actual behavior in the Sim is a little bit different from our real one, I enjoy to fly it from time to time. Sometimes in my home area, sometimes in places I will never be in my life. But I also try gliders and helicopters from time to time and based on my experience with the C152 I feels plausible and  have some great time.

And maybe MSFS is also surprisingly good for those that have a different focus or are interested only in certain aspects. That would be great.