Deleted. 

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by martin-w

6 hours ago, martin-w said:

I recall they are improving the F22 but the trouble is that no more can be built, they would have to start from scratch. 

Yeah, it's too late now.  I meant that they could have continued with the F22's production and fixed the issues it had.

Unfortunately, a lot of these decisions about what weapons systems to develop are made by corrupt "representatives" who are only looking out for themselves and their particular special interests, so we don't always get what we really need.

Maybe the F-35 is overall a better deal in the long run.  I've read that it is a pretty good plane, and once they get all the kinks worked out it may be one of the best, plus its price tag is more reasonable.  I sure hope so.

We still need more drones, though.

Dave

George Washington foresaw what we have done to our democracy.

" However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion. "

From his Farewell Address, September 17, 1796

Likewise Dwight Eisenhower foresaw what a large military-industrial complaex could do to us.

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. . . .Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. . . . In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

From his Farewell Address, January 17th, 1961

Noel

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

George Washington foresaw what we have done to our democracy.

Thanks for those quotes from wise men, Noel.

Unfortunately, in a Republic there will always be corrupt people who get into govt. for the money and power it brings them.  I estimate that about half of our Congress falls into this category, if not more. 

It's really either this form of govt., or a totalitarian one.  There really is no other viable alternative.  Pure democracy where the citizens vote on everything and the majority gets its way has been tried and was a dismal failure - our founders knew this and so formed a Republic.  It remains to be seen whether we can keep it, as Benjamin Franklin commented.

It lies with the People to stay educated and informed so that they can exercise the power they still have to vote out the corrupt people.

Dave

On 12/7/2024 at 10:18 PM, martin-w said:

 

The drones can't be cheap and nasty though. They would have to be equipped with the same high tech sensors, sensor fusion with other drones, advanced communication and weapons systems, stealthy, etc. So not cheap, just no squidgy pilot to get squelchy. 

 

Sorry for the late reply, but my reply is this...

Uuuuuummmm no, you don't match technology with technology, going back to what I was saying and I don't think you were paying attention, part of what made the U-Boat vulnerable was Sonar, they didn't match technology with technology, they found a cheap (free) vulnerability and exposed it.

If ever there was a future war time think tank, I don't think you would be apart of it

Mathew..... that's a bit rude and unnecessary. Unusual from you.

Edited December 10, 20241 yr by martin-w

1 hour ago, Matthew Kane said:

they didn't match technology with technology, they found a cheap (free) vulnerability and exposed it.

 

And what "cheap vulnerability" would be exposed by a number of cheap drones with basic capabilities? 

You said "cheap and nasty drones will make the F35 obsolete". 

How? Cheap, low capability drones could never compete with stealty, extreme capability platforms. They could be useful in some scenarios, in conjunction with high tech platforms,  but they couldn't REPLACE high tech platforms.

We know that drones are vulnerable to air defences and very vulnerable to electrnic warfare measures. So yes, sophisticated drones will fly alongside sixth gen aircraft... but unsophisticated, cheap drones, vulnerable to air defences and electronic countermeasures won't make 5th gen or 6th gen aircraft obsolete. Highly sophisticated AI drones might though, some time in the future.

This is my opinion, put forward in a friendly manner. Hopefully you'll respond the same way.

Edited December 10, 20241 yr by martin-w

19 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

And what "cheap vulnerability" would be exposed by a number of cheap drones with basic capabilities? 

 

You just confirmed my comment, you could never be apart of a future think tank by the way you think, but the concept of the cheap and nasty Corvette vs the U-boat remains the same, don’t match the technology, find a vulnerability and expose it 🤣

27 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Mathew..... that's very rude and unnecessary. Unusual from you.

Wasn’t being rude sorry if you saw it that way, just saying whatever outthinks the F35 platform will think outside the box, that’s how you beat it, this concept is nothing new

13 minutes ago, Matthew Kane said:

Wasn’t being rude sorry if you saw it that way, just saying whatever outthinks the F35 platform will think outside the box, that’s how you beat it, this concept is nothing new

 

Yeah, it was rude, to be honest. Twice!

This isn't WW2. It's a different era. But actually, German Uboats weren't high tech state of the art technology. The German subs that went into combat were less sophisticated than USN subs. It's was actually technology that turned the tables, shortwave radio etc.

You've not offered a counterargument to anything I've said. And if you think I couldn't be part of a future "think-tank" then neither can any current military expert or decision maker, because I've not come across any of them that think a multitude of unsophisticated, vulnerable, unstealthy, drones make modern 5th or 6th gen combat platforms obsolete.

How would your vulnerable, cheap, unsophisticated drones not be downed in droves by sophisticated electronic countermeasures and air defences?

It's been quite openly stated, the direction of travel... 6th gen highly sophisticated aircraft will fly alongside capable drones. 

"just saying whatever outthinks the F35 platform will think outside the box,"

Actually no, you said super cheap, unsophisticated drones will make F35 obsolete.

Edited December 10, 20241 yr by martin-w

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

but they couldn't REPLACE high tech platforms.

Maybe not today, but what about tomorrow?   And who know how far AI is going to develop?  When we were all impressed with Ma Bell's Princess Phone none of us ever dreamed the telephone would become a navigational device, telephone, camera, a place to play games device, an encyclopedia, and more that would fit in your hip pocket and, indeed, become a part of your anatomy.  Even the word 'couldn't' and 'can't' have just about become obsolete.

Noel

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

Maybe not today, but what about tomorrow?   And who know how far AI is going to develop?  

Noel

 

Yep, exactly. But Mathew stated that cheap, simple primitive drones would make F35 obsolete. Which I disagree with.

Most definitely, highly sophisticated AI drones could become the dominant platform

38 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Most definitely, highly sophisticated AI drones could become the dominant platform

I don't know that a drone must have advanced technology incorporated in order to be effective.  I do think they need to be stealthy to avoid radar, and they need targeting sensors and control systems, but I'm not sure they need to have the same level of advanced tech as the F-35 has, for example.

On a certain current battlefield we can't talk about here, one side has resorted to using drones with an attached control cable so it can't be jammed.  This is a primitive solution to the advanced electronic jamming the other side is using, but it works. \

I'm not entirely certain how electronic jamming works and what size area can be saturated with jamming signals, but if I send a swarm of 50 stealth drones towards a target from multiple directions, maybe the jamming can only take out half of them and the rest get through.

I think that drones should have a big role in modern warfare.

Dave

Actually a sophisticated drone must have a pilot somewhere to control it.  That pilot simply controls it from outside while the F-35 is controlled by a pilot inside.

A pilot-less drone is simply a sophisticated guided missile.

A piloted fighter or fighter-bomber can change it's mind and go to an alternate target if the main target is too well protected.  Can a drone evaluated the current conditions and decide to turn back or redirect itself elsewhere or abort a mission?

Is your drone simply a remote controlled modern fighter piloted by a pilot on the ground somewhere?  Could it engage enemy piloted fighters and shoot them down?  Could it anticipate an enemy fighters moves and shoot it down?  Could it dog-fight?

If the concept of using drones to replace human fighter pilots how does that bode for peaceful uses of drones?  Could drones be used for crop dusting or remotely piloting Boeings and Air Busses from Los Angeles to Honolulu or Paris?

Most of you reading this are already recreational drone pilots only your aircraft are not real, just computer models.  When I used to sit in the cockpit of my Mooney and take off from Carlsbad headed for Tucson was I in effect a drone pilot?

Interesting concept which will be interesting to watch develop.

Noel

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

I don't know that a drone must have advanced technology incorporated in order to be effective.  I do think they need to be stealthy to avoid radar, and they need targeting sensors and control systems, but I'm not sure they need to have the same level of advanced tech as the F-35 has, for example.

 

I think that in order to be "effective" I would agree with you. But Mathew was referring to very low tech, cheap, drones making the F35 obsolete. Which I disagreed with. The attributes you mention are advanced relative to the super cheap low tech drones Mathew referred to.

In terms of the general discussion about drone tech, not related to Mathews premise, I think it would depend how we define "effective". There are varying degrees of effectiveness. As you mention, stealthy which involves advanced coatings and air frame design, and the more advanced the weapons systems and targeting systems the better, of course. Drones are vulnerable to electronic attack, so effective anti-electronic warfare systems would be required. As per the aforementioned, we are getting pretty sophisticated. So I would say that how sophisticated we wanted to get would depend on the role that was required. 

Then there's the question of whether they would be fully autonomous or semi-autonomous, or further into the future, equipped with AGI. 

 

Edited December 10, 20241 yr by martin-w