Hi Everyone.

Have any of you (CFI) found a mod and or a complete 172 model that has the proper behavior when performing Commercial / Ground / Flight maneuvers, using Jstick and Rudder pedals?

I am unable to find a good mod to get the XP12 to perform properly, by book / practical test standards . I was able to the X11, X10, X9... to get a credible behavior but unable to get good results on X12.

Some of the problems are on the ground in Xwind with full power, over banking in left turns and many others..

I've attempted some wing mods, ground friction.. Thank you.

The default Cessna 172 in X-Plane 12 is fine. I believe you are doing something wrong or have not set up your hardware appropriately.

If you detail your findings a bit better and also state why you feel that it does "not behave properly" we can discuss - so far your claims are unsubstantiated, unverifiable and only anecdotal.

12 hours ago, Avcomware said:

Hi Everyone.

Have any of you (CFI) found a mod and or a complete 172 model that has the proper behavior when performing Commercial / Ground / Flight maneuvers, using Jstick and Rudder pedals?

I am unable to find a good mod to get the XP12 to perform properly, by book / practical test standards . I was able to the X11, X10, X9... to get a credible behavior but unable to get good results on X12.

Some of the problems are on the ground in Xwind with full power, over banking in left turns and many others..

I've attempted some wing mods, ground friction.. Thank you.

I personally find the SimCoders Reality Expansion Packages to give very good results, especially when seeking the nuances of flight.

It’s cheap, too: $20 and adds directly in to the Default 172. Or you can make a copy of the 172 and upgrade that, so you have both to compare.

But first, I’d take Litjan up on his offer of assistance. A LOT of flight sim addon misbehavior has more to do with peripherals than anything…🤙

To add, the weather in xp12 is far superior to what is was in older versions and much has changed, including flight models, so you really cant compare. But as mentioned might just be your joystick set up,

There are only two things I find "strange" about the default C172, and even so it's with a LOT of reserves because I never flew one IRL, so I can't tell if they're valid:

.) the huge pitching moment due to flap deployment, requiring a good deal of elevator control to arrest the balloning;

.) when I "center the ball", say, during the initial climb at full power where the prop effects come to play in all their majesty, it banks to the right;

Other than that I really like the way it bahaves on ground and in flight, but then again, never flew in such a C172 model IRL...

Edited yesterday at 10:03 AM1 day by jcomm

44 minutes ago, jcomm said:

.) when I "center the ball", say, during the initial climb at full power where the prop effects come to play in all their majesty, it banks to the right;

It´s a common misconception - even among pilots - that a "centered ball" automatically should mean that the aircraft can be flown "hands off" (no aileron or rudder input).

But all a centered ball says, is that there is no force acting in a lateral way (i.e. it feels like you are getting pushed towards the left sidewall or right sidewall). So in a car going around a turn, you are getting pushed towards a sidewall - this would deflect the ball in an aircraft, meaning you are "skidding" in a turn or you are flying straight, or that there is a bank (so the resultant force is pushing you towards the sidewall).

The ball says NOTHING about a torque or turning force around the longitudinal axis, though - imagine you are flying straight and level, but you have an elephant sitting on the copilots seat. The plane will fly straight, the ball is centered, but you will need to put in a TON of left aileron to keep the plane from banking towards the heavy elephant.

This illustrates that discussing "aerodynamic properties and modeling" is almost completely useless and fruitless in non-professional online forums. People have a very vague understanding of the principles at play, and - besides telling someone to set up their hardware correctly - you are basically discussing things that are way over the heads of most people, although everyone feels that he understands the topic and is eager to add his "insights" 🙄.

The manual trimming procedure in the 737 highlights this. It first makes you keep the wings level with the aileron, then observe for any yawing tendency - and trim out that yawing tendency with the rudder. Now you are flying straight and level with the ball centered...but you still have the aileron "displaced" to keep the plane level. Now as a last step, you use aileron trim to relieve the aileron forces from the yoke - but you are ending up with a "displaced yoke", because an aircraft is rarely perfectly balanced laterally, one side is always more "heavy" than the other side.

Edited yesterday at 10:22 AM1 day by Litjan

12 minutes ago, Litjan said:

But all a centered ball says, is that there is no force acting in a lateral way (i.e. it feels like you are getting pushed towards the left sidewall or right sidewall). So in a car going around a turn, you are getting pushed towards a sidewall - this would deflect the ball in an aircraft, meaning you are "skidding" in a turn or you are flying straight, but there is a bank (so the resultant force is pushing you towards the sidewall).

The ball says NOTHING about a torque or turning force - imagine you are flying straight and level, but you have an elephant sitting on the copilots seat. The plane will fly straight, the ball is centered, but you will need to put in a TON of left aileron to keep the plane from banking towards the heavy elephant.

This illustrates that discussing "aerodynamic properties and modeling" is almost completely useless and fruitless in non-professional online forums. People have a very vague understanding of the principles at play, and - besides telling someone to set up their hardware correctly - you are basically discussing things that are way over the heads of most people, although everyone feels that he understands the topic and is eager to add his "insights" 🙄.

I've never flown with an elephant in the cockpit, although I did fly with rather heavy passengers, either seated ahead of me or behind in a glider, and indeed in terms of CoG and glider performance it does play a rather important role.

Now, if the imbalance is along the pitch axis like in your example, I believe you'll have to use both left yoke and rudder to coordinate, correct? You would be out of coordination if you only applied yoke(aileron) correct? Although differential aileron rigging palys it's role in most aircraft, it isn't enough to fully overcome induced drag, correct?

So, sorry but really not a good example, and far from a correct interpretation of the effect I refer to...

Also read my post and understand that all I am saying is that I find it "overdone" - too much bank into the kicked rudder side (right). I'm not saying it's wrong, and it surely isn't, just that it feels to me a bit too much...

[EDIT: but I agree I didn't make myself clear because I only wrote - "it banks to the right" and I should have written "it banks way to much to the right"]

If one applies "right rudder" there's going to be a right rolling moment due to yaw-roll coupling, and a bit of "left yoke" should be required, indeed... I just find it a bit too much in this model... maybe I'm wrong and a rw C172 pilot could comment ?

And, also take into consideration that the torque forces you referred to are also in favour of a left rolling moment, not a right one, because you have a CW rotating prop, and the C172 is climbing at full power.

BTW, the weight asymmetry due to only the pilot being on board is negligible, unless there's an elephant in control, but again it would contribute towards a left rolling moment, not right...

Edited 21 hours ago21 hr by jcomm

So....

I couldn't resist asking a great friend, active Airbus driver and flight instructor who used to teach in C152 and C172...

He - Marco - just confirmed Xp12 is --> CORRECT <-- and, all other factors being negligible, including a well "callibrated" fixed/ground adjustable rudder trim tab, he recalls that there is a slight tendency to bank right when the ball centers, almost imperceptible according to his experience even in other low wing props.

So... again... correct, but probably too "intense"... in the default C172.

Edited 19 hours ago19 hr by jcomm

37 minutes ago, jcomm said:

So....

I couldn't resist asking a great friend, active Airbus driver and flight instructor who used to teach in C152 and C172...

He - Marco - just confirmed Xp12 is --> CORRECT <-- and, all other factors being negligible, including a well "callibrated" fixed/ground adjustable rudder trim tab, he recalls that there is a slight tendency to bank right when the ball centers, almost imperceptible according to his experience even in other low wing props.

So... again... correct, but probably too "intense"... in the default C172.

I personally don’t mind aero effects being a bit overdone - it greatly helps (me) to remember that they’re there.

My biggest nitpick with the C172 in XP is that it’s waaay too easy to land. I’m never that good IRL!

44 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I personally don’t mind aero effects being a bit overdone - it greatly helps

Me either. I think it helps add to the sensation of flight on a stationary desk where there is no cognitive feedback. As long as it’s not too overdone.

There are a ton of factors affecting roll moment around the longitudinal axis:

• Engine torque

• Fuel imbalance

• Load imbalance

• Propeller slipstream hitting wings and stabilizer asymmetrical (corkscrew effect)

• Rigging

All of these have various strength during various parts of the flight, depending on angle of attack, airspeed, engine torque and RPM.

To have a propeller aircraft NOT roll with neutral ailerons is pure luck - most are rigged to give you near-neutral aileron at typical cruise speed and power settings - but will invariably be exhibiting a tendency to roll at other times.

It would not surprise me to hear opposite testimony from two different real C172 drivers when asked about which way the aircraft rolls at a certain speed/powersetting. The trim tabs will allow you to tweak the plane to pretty much any predisposition you want, let alone a decade of rough handling and bouncy landings that will twist and bend the airframe and wings ever so slightly...

9 hours ago, jcomm said:

There are only two things I find "strange" about the default C172, and even so it's with a LOT of reserves because I never flew one IRL, so I can't tell if they're valid:

.) the huge pitching moment due to flap deployment, requiring a good deal of elevator control to arrest the balloning;

The real-world 172 definitely has a strong pitch-up tendency, particularly when going from flaps up to flaps 10. You want to be anticipating the elevator input you need to put in and be ready to trim. It's been a while since I've flown the 172 in the sim, so I can't say if the effect is overdone in the sim, but it's certainly very noticeable in the real aircraft.

3 hours ago, Patco Lch said:

Me either. I think it helps add to the sensation of flight on a stationary desk where there is no cognitive feedback. As long as it’s not too overdone.

Yep.

For e.g., Just Flight went way overboard with their Turbo Arrow v2 - you need waaay too much rudder.

Conversely, A2A Sims has nearly zero rudder needed in their Comanche. So little that it’s actually distracting!

Adding rudder is necessary for steep cross control descent and staying centered on takeoff, other than that you don't need to use the rudder irl

12 minutes ago, XMAN said:

Adding rudder is necessary for steep cross control descent and staying centered on takeoff, other than that you don't need to use the rudder irl

Your propeller cares to disagree. 😉