Avsim, please open a payware discussion forum

[Guest alex333]

.. this is my reaction to the deleted FTX (full terrain experience) thread.I don't think that the right action has been taken in this case.As it is impossible to change what has been done, there is one thing I'd suggest to avoid such things in the future:Open a dedicated payware product discussion forum (not a support forum)!Every flight simulator that we talk about here is a payware product itself. MSFS by now is built to be a platform for further add-ons.We all agree that FS9 only really shines with the many add-ons, be it payware or freeware.FSX is on the way to full bloom with all those great products being just about to be released.With a dedicated forum, each payware product could be treated in the same way. And I guess, many simmers would benefit of it, as most of us are naturally interested in taking flightsimming further.And maybe there would be no need anymore to lock threads one after the other - which again is not right in my opinion.Thanks from Germany for listening, discussing and not locking...Alex (just a FS fan, not affiliated in any way with any add-on product...)

[ryanbatc 12,857]

No comment about the deleted thread, however I agree with you about opening a new forum (bandwidth permitting)A forum about any payware you can think of, where users and designers talk about, well, payware heheAnd yes like Alex said, NO SUPPORT provided

[Geofa 108]

I want to explain my understanding of the avsim rules and maybe the other mods want to jump in:We can discuss payware here. We can even rave about it, or not, and discuss-as end users . However, we do not allow payware creaters to start threads expounding a present or future product. We do allow payware makers to participate as fellow simmers, answer users questions and problems.We try to keep a balance in this sometimes grey area where answers/support/information, to end users starts to look like something else. If in our opinion, or in our fellow simmers who alert us that the thread is crossing the boundry of the above criteria, we will respond.All this is done is a spirit of fairness to all payware developers and to flight simmers. The thread that was deleted met the parameters to be deleted. On my side as a mod-I did not realize this. Tom did and he took care of it. One of the reasons we have multiple mods here.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Guest]

and what's also not allowed is people starting flamewars by slagging products, payware or otherwise.

[DadJokeCinema 145]

We should start a forum too where people can ask questions to the people who run this site.Oh, wait, that already exists.

[Guest alex333]

Sorry for posting in the wrong section.I posted this topic here in the FSX subforum because it's here where the problems started. I hope for your understanding.

[DadJokeCinema 145]

>Sorry for posting in the wrong section.>I posted this topic here in the FSX subforum because it's here>where the problems started. >I hope for your understanding.There's no problem.There was a thread made by someone with a history of breaking the rule, it was deleted because of that, it was all handled behind the scenes and now it's been explained to everyone.There isn't a need for anymore discussion about it.

[David Roch 1,982]

Alex, you (or anyone here) can freely speak about a product you like, freeware or payware, that's not the point.What we can't admit is stealth advertising from developers that use this forum as a promotion plateform.Serious companies don't do that as they know very well that their best advert is their customer's satisfaction and positive feedback.IMO, opening such a forum would be opening a Pandora box where simmers, designers and competitors would fight about anything and everything.

[MatthewS 761]

>We can discuss payware here. We can even rave about it, or>not, and discuss-as end users . >>However, we do not allow payware creaters to start threads>expounding a present or future product. >>We do allow payware makers to participate as fellow simmers,>answer users questions and problems.>Ok, sounds fair.If I start a thread about FTX is it ok? I am not involved in the FTX project, just a supporter eager to get my hands on it come March 5.Seems to me that FTX is an important and ground breaking product and deserves exposure and discussion on important sites like AVSIM.

[Avcomware 1]

Hi Alex and everyone.I completely disagree. If payware would pay for their advertising and bandwidth, then maybe, otherwise NO.There seem to be fanatics out there that cause nothing but problems when someone has a problem, and complains about the product, and Yes that includes some of the developers themselves.Why should AVSIM pay for bandwidth, monitor the Forums etc.? Keep it what was intended to do and let the Developers pay for their advertising and support. I see a lot of people here spending time and bandwidth giving tech support for pay products. If they are in business to make money, then they should pay for it. I see many developers using the knowledge and expertise of the board members, starting as Freeware then they take the product Payware, just wondering if they ever went back to people that helped them and shared any of the profits?NO Payware, please. TV

[Guest Nick_N]

I have made a decisionI am removing my sig banner because I never want to be seen as someone who is advertising. Although I am working with GEX to enhance it, I was not paid to do so and even though I may accept a small offer to assist with the rest of the tile, which has not been established, and, I am continuing with it none the less, FIRST and FORMOST I am a simmer, plain and simple.I cherish the hobby and have been using MSFS since the Apple IIc days. I love the freeware, some of which I have contributed, the payware and all the wonderful things everyone has to offer, and, most of all.. I like to help people get their sim in order when ever I can, because THAT is what this is all about to me, sharing and helping others to realize the best experience possible, regardless of what is installed.I wish to be a part of the communities without the stigma of trying to push products. If I answer a question to a fellow simmer and I have a banner in my sig, or, use a screenshot, I am automatically advertising? That is not my goal and never was and although when I first started posting here I did not completely understand the gray areas involved, I do now and never want that to be seen as anything other than trying to help. AT the same time I am going to temper my responses so they are not anything that would be misunderstood as a plug.Therefore, my banner is gone and I am first and foremost a fellow simmer who will continue to contribute where ever I can.

[Holger 0]

Hi Nick,nice move and sentiment - down with banners ;-)(then again, I have occasionally been accused of hiding the fact that I'm a developer because I *don't* use banners, so you never will be able to please everybody...)I actually like the fact that AVSIM has a fairly strict policy against payware advertisement by developers - as long as it is applied fairly and equally. On the other hand there are forums that don't have these restrictions and they don't seem to develop into ad fests of commercial developers either. For example, Flightsimworld has these endless threads in its screenshot forum about REX, FST, etc., to which Beta testers and developers keep adding new shots and people seem to enjoy getting visual updates on the development process. Sometimes it's the very presence of rules that make things more complicated than they need to be.Like I said though, I prefer AVSIM without direct advertisement in the general forums.Cheers, Holger

[JayKae 1]

>There was a thread made by someone with a history of breaking>the rule, it was deleted because of that, it was all handled>behind the scenes and now it's been explained to everyone.I sincerely hope you were NOT referring to me with that comment and as far as "handling" behind the scenes goes, I never even got as much as a private message about it let alone an explanation. As I have said before, I might be OrbX' and FTX' administrator, I do not get paid for my services, nor do I want to, I am an avid simfan and I do it for the love of it. I actually came on here to tell the community about a product which I thought the community should know about. I did not hide my name or create a dummy account ( which I KNOW certain developers have done over the years gone by & I know because they have told me so) to advertise something I shouldn't have. I could have asked one of the forum members to go and post it, I didn't, I came out here and posted it under my name.Do I deserve the post that Mr Allensworth has put up, crucifying my good name and treating me like a child by telling me to message him so that he can "spell it out" ? No, I do not. Messaging him does not help anyway because I have not had a reply, that is why I have gone public. Mr Allensworth has a short memory, he forgets that I for 1.5 years a newswriter here and I always got the job done. The reason I left was because of Mr Allensworth' behaviour towards news and the censorship towards certain things. So .. sour grapes Mr Allensworth? If you want an explanation of all of the above message me and I will "spell it out" to YOU!JayKae <-- soon to be banned for having an opinion and being an individual

[Guest]

>>We can discuss payware here. We can even rave about it, or>>not, and discuss-as end users . >>>>However, we do not allow payware creaters to start threads>>expounding a present or future product. >>>>We do allow payware makers to participate as fellow simmers,>>answer users questions and problems.>>>>Ok, sounds fair.>>If I start a thread about FTX is it ok? I am not involved in>the FTX project, just a supporter eager to get my hands on it>come March 5.>>Seems to me that FTX is an important and ground breaking>product and deserves exposure and discussion on important>sites like AVSIM.> There's a difference between discussing the merits of products and blatant advertising, which is what the closed threads are.But if all you're going to do is start raving about how great it is, and start to sound like a teleterrorist (a.k.a. salesperson) you can bet it's going to be seen as advertising.

[DadJokeCinema 145]

>>There was a thread made by someone with a history of>breaking>>the rule, it was deleted because of that, it was all handled>>behind the scenes and now it's been explained to everyone.>>I sincerely hope you were NOT referring to me with that>comment and as far as "handling" behind the scenes goes, I>never even got as much as a private message about it let alone>an explanation. As I have said before, I might be OrbX' and>FTX' administrator, I do not get paid for my services, nor do>I want to, I am an avid simfan and I do it for the love of it.>I actually came on here to tell the community about a product>which I thought the community should know about. I did not>hide my name or create a dummy account ( which I KNOW certain>developers have done over the years gone by & I know because>they have told me so) to advertise something I shouldn't have.>I could have asked one of the forum members to go and post it,>I didn't, I came out here and posted it under my name.>>Do I deserve the post that Mr Allensworth has put up,>crucifying my good name and treating me like a child by>telling me to message him so that he can "spell it out" ? No,>I do not. Messaging him does not help anyway because I have>not had a reply, that is why I have gone public. Mr>Allensworth has a short memory, he forgets that I for 1.5>years a newswriter here and I always got the job done. The>reason I left was because of Mr Allensworth' behaviour towards>news and the censorship towards certain things. So .. sour>grapes Mr Allensworth? If you want an explanation of all of>the above message me and I will "spell it out" to YOU!>>JayKae <-- soon to be banned for having an opinion and being>an individualYeah, yeah, sorry, I'll be sure to include you in all the discussions the admins here have from now on.I like the bit how you bash the guy who runs the whole site here for a paragraph and then claim that if you are banned, it will be some censoring act against your individuality. That's real classy.