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Guest zzmikezz

Avsim, please open a payware discussion forum

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.. this is my reaction to the deleted FTX (full terrain experience) thread.I don't think that the right action has been taken in this case.As it is impossible to change what has been done, there is one thing I'd suggest to avoid such things in the future:Open a dedicated payware product discussion forum (not a support forum)!Every flight simulator that we talk about here is a payware product itself. MSFS by now is built to be a platform for further add-ons.We all agree that FS9 only really shines with the many add-ons, be it payware or freeware.FSX is on the way to full bloom with all those great products being just about to be released.With a dedicated forum, each payware product could be treated in the same way. And I guess, many simmers would benefit of it, as most of us are naturally interested in taking flightsimming further.And maybe there would be no need anymore to lock threads one after the other - which again is not right in my opinion.Thanks from Germany for listening, discussing and not locking...Alex (just a FS fan, not affiliated in any way with any add-on product...)

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No comment about the deleted thread, however I agree with you about opening a new forum (bandwidth permitting)A forum about any payware you can think of, where users and designers talk about, well, payware heheAnd yes like Alex said, NO SUPPORT provided

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I want to explain my understanding of the avsim rules and maybe the other mods want to jump in:We can discuss payware here. We can even rave about it, or not, and discuss-as end users . However, we do not allow payware creaters to start threads expounding a present or future product. We do allow payware makers to participate as fellow simmers, answer users questions and problems.We try to keep a balance in this sometimes grey area where answers/support/information, to end users starts to look like something else. If in our opinion, or in our fellow simmers who alert us that the thread is crossing the boundry of the above criteria, we will respond.All this is done is a spirit of fairness to all payware developers and to flight simmers. The thread that was deleted met the parameters to be deleted. On my side as a mod-I did not realize this. Tom did and he took care of it. One of the reasons we have multiple mods here.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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and what's also not allowed is people starting flamewars by slagging products, payware or otherwise.

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We should start a forum too where people can ask questions to the people who run this site.Oh, wait, that already exists.

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Sorry for posting in the wrong section.I posted this topic here in the FSX subforum because it's here where the problems started. I hope for your understanding.

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>Sorry for posting in the wrong section.>I posted this topic here in the FSX subforum because it's here>where the problems started. >I hope for your understanding.There's no problem.There was a thread made by someone with a history of breaking the rule, it was deleted because of that, it was all handled behind the scenes and now it's been explained to everyone.There isn't a need for anymore discussion about it.

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Alex, you (or anyone here) can freely speak about a product you like, freeware or payware, that's not the point.What we can't admit is stealth advertising from developers that use this forum as a promotion plateform.Serious companies don't do that as they know very well that their best advert is their customer's satisfaction and positive feedback.IMO, opening such a forum would be opening a Pandora box where simmers, designers and competitors would fight about anything and everything.

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>We can discuss payware here. We can even rave about it, or>not, and discuss-as end users . >>However, we do not allow payware creaters to start threads>expounding a present or future product. >>We do allow payware makers to participate as fellow simmers,>answer users questions and problems.>Ok, sounds fair.If I start a thread about FTX is it ok? I am not involved in the FTX project, just a supporter eager to get my hands on it come March 5.Seems to me that FTX is an important and ground breaking product and deserves exposure and discussion on important sites like AVSIM.

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Hi Alex and everyone.I completely disagree. If payware would pay for their advertising and bandwidth, then maybe, otherwise NO.There seem to be fanatics out there that cause nothing but problems when someone has a problem, and complains about the product, and Yes that includes some of the developers themselves.Why should AVSIM pay for bandwidth, monitor the Forums etc.? Keep it what was intended to do and let the Developers pay for their advertising and support. I see a lot of people here spending time and bandwidth giving tech support for pay products. If they are in business to make money, then they should pay for it. I see many developers using the knowledge and expertise of the board members, starting as Freeware then they take the product Payware, just wondering if they ever went back to people that helped them and shared any of the profits?NO Payware, please. TV

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I have made a decisionI am removing my sig banner because I never want to be seen as someone who is advertising. Although I am working with GEX to enhance it, I was not paid to do so and even though I may accept a small offer to assist with the rest of the tile, which has not been established, and, I am continuing with it none the less, FIRST and FORMOST I am a simmer, plain and simple.I cherish the hobby and have been using MSFS since the Apple IIc days. I love the freeware, some of which I have contributed, the payware and all the wonderful things everyone has to offer, and, most of all.. I like to help people get their sim in order when ever I can, because THAT is what this is all about to me, sharing and helping others to realize the best experience possible, regardless of what is installed.I wish to be a part of the communities without the stigma of trying to push products. If I answer a question to a fellow simmer and I have a banner in my sig, or, use a screenshot, I am automatically advertising? That is not my goal and never was and although when I first started posting here I did not completely understand the gray areas involved, I do now and never want that to be seen as anything other than trying to help. AT the same time I am going to temper my responses so they are not anything that would be misunderstood as a plug.Therefore, my banner is gone and I am first and foremost a fellow simmer who will continue to contribute where ever I can.

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Hi Nick,nice move and sentiment - down with banners ;-)(then again, I have occasionally been accused of hiding the fact that I'm a developer because I *don't* use banners, so you never will be able to please everybody...)I actually like the fact that AVSIM has a fairly strict policy against payware advertisement by developers - as long as it is applied fairly and equally. On the other hand there are forums that don't have these restrictions and they don't seem to develop into ad fests of commercial developers either. For example, Flightsimworld has these endless threads in its screenshot forum about REX, FST, etc., to which Beta testers and developers keep adding new shots and people seem to enjoy getting visual updates on the development process. Sometimes it's the very presence of rules that make things more complicated than they need to be.Like I said though, I prefer AVSIM without direct advertisement in the general forums.Cheers, Holger

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>There was a thread made by someone with a history of breaking>the rule, it was deleted because of that, it was all handled>behind the scenes and now it's been explained to everyone.I sincerely hope you were NOT referring to me with that comment and as far as "handling" behind the scenes goes, I never even got as much as a private message about it let alone an explanation. As I have said before, I might be OrbX' and FTX' administrator, I do not get paid for my services, nor do I want to, I am an avid simfan and I do it for the love of it. I actually came on here to tell the community about a product which I thought the community should know about. I did not hide my name or create a dummy account ( which I KNOW certain developers have done over the years gone by & I know because they have told me so) to advertise something I shouldn't have. I could have asked one of the forum members to go and post it, I didn't, I came out here and posted it under my name.Do I deserve the post that Mr Allensworth has put up, crucifying my good name and treating me like a child by telling me to message him so that he can "spell it out" ? No, I do not. Messaging him does not help anyway because I have not had a reply, that is why I have gone public. Mr Allensworth has a short memory, he forgets that I for 1.5 years a newswriter here and I always got the job done. The reason I left was because of Mr Allensworth' behaviour towards news and the censorship towards certain things. So .. sour grapes Mr Allensworth? If you want an explanation of all of the above message me and I will "spell it out" to YOU!JayKae <-- soon to be banned for having an opinion and being an individual

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>>We can discuss payware here. We can even rave about it, or>>not, and discuss-as end users . >>>>However, we do not allow payware creaters to start threads>>expounding a present or future product. >>>>We do allow payware makers to participate as fellow simmers,>>answer users questions and problems.>>>>Ok, sounds fair.>>If I start a thread about FTX is it ok? I am not involved in>the FTX project, just a supporter eager to get my hands on it>come March 5.>>Seems to me that FTX is an important and ground breaking>product and deserves exposure and discussion on important>sites like AVSIM.> There's a difference between discussing the merits of products and blatant advertising, which is what the closed threads are.But if all you're going to do is start raving about how great it is, and start to sound like a teleterrorist (a.k.a. salesperson) you can bet it's going to be seen as advertising.

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>>There was a thread made by someone with a history of>breaking>>the rule, it was deleted because of that, it was all handled>>behind the scenes and now it's been explained to everyone.>>I sincerely hope you were NOT referring to me with that>comment and as far as "handling" behind the scenes goes, I>never even got as much as a private message about it let alone>an explanation. As I have said before, I might be OrbX' and>FTX' administrator, I do not get paid for my services, nor do>I want to, I am an avid simfan and I do it for the love of it.>I actually came on here to tell the community about a product>which I thought the community should know about. I did not>hide my name or create a dummy account ( which I KNOW certain>developers have done over the years gone by & I know because>they have told me so) to advertise something I shouldn't have.>I could have asked one of the forum members to go and post it,>I didn't, I came out here and posted it under my name.>>Do I deserve the post that Mr Allensworth has put up,>crucifying my good name and treating me like a child by>telling me to message him so that he can "spell it out" ? No,>I do not. Messaging him does not help anyway because I have>not had a reply, that is why I have gone public. Mr>Allensworth has a short memory, he forgets that I for 1.5>years a newswriter here and I always got the job done. The>reason I left was because of Mr Allensworth' behaviour towards>news and the censorship towards certain things. So .. sour>grapes Mr Allensworth? If you want an explanation of all of>the above message me and I will "spell it out" to YOU!>>JayKae <-- soon to be banned for having an opinion and being>an individualYeah, yeah, sorry, I'll be sure to include you in all the discussions the admins here have from now on.I like the bit how you bash the guy who runs the whole site here for a paragraph and then claim that if you are banned, it will be some censoring act against your individuality. That's real classy.

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Since you brought it up, as an AVSIM staffer writing front page news articles you were asked to stop posting any front news regarding VOS because of your obvious connection to the product. No other reason. We did not want you or AVSIM accused of any improprieties. We asked that you allow other front page editors to judge whether Koorby's news was indeed news. You quit AVSIM as a result. Your connection to the product now is what got that thread deleted. You know the rules Jaykae. You may have taken exception to my message about the thread, but it obviously got your attention. That was my intent. Castigate or vilify me all you wish; you broke the rules, you know you broke the rules, appropriate steps were taken, and you don't like it. You will get over it.Also, please note that your message has not been deleted and you have not been banned. And, I have not "rubbished" you.

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Good thing I have kept all the emails Mr Allensworth of the happenings back then, I knew they would come in handy some day, I posted something about VOZ when I was on duty one time and it got questioned and I got asked to let others post that. Which I agreed to, without any dramas.(refer emails of 16/01/2007 till 20/01/2007 )Then in April I put up an item of a developer whose only form of communication was via Simmarket and YOU did not like that because you have issues with Francois and Miquel, so I was told off not to do that anymore. I did not like that and THAT is why I left, nothing to do with VOZ or any of my other projects.(refer emails of 02/04/2007 and 04/04/2007)Anyway, it is obvious that everything I say will be taken out of context and used against me, so this will be my last post on AVSIM ever. Have a good one guys!

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Actually I think posts such as this discussion and discussions related to new products should nonetheless be placed in the proper forum, the Hangar Chat forum. There product developers can then 'hangout' and discuss their new or current project to interested visitors. Then, if you ever visit the hangar, you may have commercial developers coming up to you and saying, "Hey buddy! Do you have some time? Have you seen this new product I want to sell? Just let me show you what I got here inside my coat." Just like walking down main street, USA.... lol Best regards,Jim

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In theory it sounds doable but in practice, I fear it would give the mods fits. I've been around these parts for quite a while and I fear it would quickly generate into either a flame war, an advertising forum or a support forum.Barring those that get out of hand, I've found a lot of valuable discussion of payware in the usual forum with no issues.Nice idea but I vote no - as if it would count! :)Just MHO,VicQ6600 G0 CPU 2.4 o/c 3.65Evga 680i A1 with P31 BIOS 2G XP2-8500 DDR2 1066FSB Mushkin 996535 RAM 5-5-4-12-2T320G 7200 HD partitioned for XP/Vista/Programs 2 - 74G Raptors in RAID0 500G 7200 HD for backup SATA DVD burner Evga 8800GTS 640 PCIx 169.13 betaKandalf LCS case w/ built in liquid cooling 850W Thermaltake power supplyVisit the Virtual Pilot's Centerwww.flightadventures.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-supporter-sigbanner.jpg

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Wow, I'll be honest and my post count will tell anyone that I don't hang out here very much. But I am absolutely astounded by the arrogance and absolute high an mighty behaviour displayed by Tom Allensworth and his forum administration team. I mean I had heard the stories and read numerous articles and post on other forums (not only VOZ or Orbx) about how some gracious contributors to FS development have been treated by AVSIM but I had never seen it first hand. Now I have, I've had a chance to see it in action and to tell you all the truth, I am disgusted.It's one thing to uphold rules, it's another to be arrogant sods. Definitely looks like being one of the top flightsim websites for so long has really gone to the heads of those high up in the administration team. It is a sad thing to see what power does to some people. And all this talk about bandwidth being used up on forum posts... give us a break, how cheap is bandwidth these days?

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Seems to me "arrogance" would be coming from those that read the rules of this site when they sign up which are clearly stated-then don't follow them.As a mod-I have also helped develop and beta tested lots of stuff.I follow the rules too. There is something I am beta testing right now I would love to post shots of because it is so cool-but will wait till the appropriate and rule abiding time.I confess-when Acceleration went final and Microsoft gave us beta testers permission to post shots-I posted some in the screen shot forum basically because many were asking for them, and my enthusiasm got the best of me.When it was pointed out by a fellow moderator that until released to the general public, I was not following avsim's policy- I withdrew the shots and apologized for not thinking a little more carefully.I fully understand enthusiasm-and I also understand the rights of the people who pay for a site to make the rules and expect those that use it freely to abide by them.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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Like I said, it's one thing to uphold rules. I am more pointing out the tone and choice of words when I highlight arrogance in this instance.

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>Wow, I'll be honest and my post count will tell anyone that I>don't hang out here very much. But I am absolutely astounded>by the arrogance and absolute high an mighty behaviour>displayed by Tom Allensworth and his forum administration>team. I mean I had heard the stories and read numerous>articles and post on other forums (not only VOZ or Orbx) about>how some gracious contributors to FS development have been>treated by AVSIM but I had never seen it first hand. Now I>have, I've had a chance to see it in action and to tell you>all the truth, I am disgusted.>>It's one thing to uphold rules, it's another to be arrogant>sods. Definitely looks like being one of the top flightsim>websites for so long has really gone to the heads of those>high up in the administration team. It is a sad thing to see>what power does to some people. >>And all this talk about bandwidth being used up on forum>posts... give us a break, how cheap is bandwidth these days?You're probably right. The admin team should definitely just smile and ignore it and not get upset when someone basically calls us fascists on our own forum because we followed our own rules.And since you brought up, I was going to get a piece of gum from 7-11 in a few minutes. Since it's pretty cheap, you wouldn't mind paying for it, right? And, of course, you know that old rule from school, if one person gets gum, you have to have enough for everyone else, so while you're out, could you pick up a piece for the other 44,000 members of this forum? Sticks of gum are cheap these days, so you shouldn't mind covering everyone.

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