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Jonathan, I wasn't going to reply to anything in this thread, but I will address your post. Yes, the survey is unscientific. I just happened to hear two students talking about online gaming during a transition in class and the idea of asking them about Flight! popped into my head. I whipped up the survey in about 5 minutes, including finding a video clip that would engage my 8th graders (the "game play" clip). Could I have written Question 4 differently? Yes, I could have used the phrase "sustain your interest" instead of "bored", but we're dealing with 8th graders here. And, I felt it was important to ask them about ongoing interest, or getting bored by it, since it has been mentioned on this forum as a concern to the longer-term success of the title. I was also insulted by your suggestion to video tape it next time. I took care to present the information in a neutral fashion to my students. Besides, you'd be surprised by how keen their sense is of recognizing when an adult is leading, pandering, patronizing, or in other way BS'ing them. I considered not posting the results, but I have seen no other data like this related on this age group, or any other, and their reaction to Flight (save for the "leaked" beta reactions on this site and all of the speculation of those on the sidelines). So, I hoped that the information, as unscientific as it is, would at least be interesting to those on this forum, and may even provoke thoughtful dialogue (not likely considering the tone around here). So, Jonathan, if you are dissatisfied with the methods, I suggest that you take the time to respond in kind by preparing a similar survey (changing the wording if it suits you, but keeping the identical video clip), administering it to a group of 40-50 youth aged 13-15, compiling and organizing the data, and presenting it on this forum. And, don't forget to upload the video tape of you giving the survey so we can be sure you didn't "lead the witnesses".I look forward to seeing your data (and your video).

Yes, I’m back, but just to deliver some data for you folks to interpret. I was lucky enough to have a few minutes at the end of class today with my 8th graders because they finished their World War I test in good time. So, in the spur of the moment, I decided to conduct an informal survey of students who identified themselves as game players and who volunteered to answer my questions. I found a video online of the game sequence of Flight and showed it to the students on my SmartBoard. I also asked several questions about their reaction, off the cuff in my first class with answers on scrap paper, and then on a printed questionnaire in my other 8th grade classes. I’ll place a disclaimer here that this data is, of course, unscientific. However, I tried to be fair and consistent in my presentation to the students about the game. So, here’s some information about what I showed, what I asked, and the responses I received.Video Clip: http://www.5min.com/...ntage-517240367Students Surveyed: 44 Ages: 13-15Questionnaire Text: (I created these notes and questions in less than five minutes. If I had taken more time, I might have changed the wording of some of the bullets and/or questions. However, once I had started the process with one class, I kept the information the same for all the classes.) Informal Survey: Microsoft Flight! Microsoft Flight! Free to Download Big Island of Hawaii Biplane and Seaplane Various Games & Challenges Multiplayer Up to 16 Players P-51 and Other Islands & Airplanes are DLCP-51 = $8 Additional Airplane = $15 Other Hawaiian Islands & One Extra Airplane = $20 1. What is the game you currently play most?2. Would you download and play Microsoft Flight? Yes. Why? No. Why? 3. How much would you be willing to pay for DLC for this game?4. Do you think you would get bored with this game?Data:1. What is the game you currently play most? Notes: Some students offered multiple responses for this question. Games are listed in order of occurrence (multiple responses marked as “# X –”) then in alphabetical order. 19 X – Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 6 X – Halo Series/Halo Reach 4 X – Fallout New Vegas 3 X – Gears of War 3 3 X – Saints Row: The Third 2 X – Call of Duty 2 2 X – Left 4 Dead 2 X – Minecraft Angry Birds Assassin’s Creed Battlefield Three Call of Duty (version not specified) Call of Duty: Black Ops Dark Souls Grand Theft Auto 4 Just Dance Oblivion Red Dead Redemption Undead Nightmare Saints Row 2 Skate 2 Skylanders 2. Would you download and play Microsoft Flight? 43 Responses Notes: Not every student provided a reason with their response. Responses are as students wrote them and are listed in alphabetical order.Yes: 28 – 65%Reasons: BC it would be a relaxing game. Something away from the violence. Because it’s like Google Earth I just want to try it out I like planes and multiplayer flying games. I like to pilot planes in games I think it looks like a cool game that me and my brother would like. It looks cool It looks cool. It looks fun It looks fun and I like flying planes It looks like fun, airplanes are cool, graphics are good. It sounds fun to play. And the graphics are good. Looks cool Looks fun Looks fun, realistic. So I can crash into things So, I can try. And I like planes. Sounds fun. Looks fun. Yeah, it looks fun Yes – good graphics – fun airplane flying Yes because it’s free but I wouldn’t pay $20 to expand it. Yes, because I like most of the Microsoft games and I like planes. Yes, because it is a free roam, level up game. Yes, because it looks cool and I would play it. Yes, because it seems really cool. Yes, because its (sic) free and you can try it and if you like it you can buy more Yes, I like games with aircrafts Yes. Because I love flight simulator. I think it’s pricy for add ons though No: 15 – 35%Reasons: Because I didn’t like it. Can’t kill any thing I don’t have Windows Live. I don’t want to pay and if I just fly around that’s boring It looks easy and boreing (sic) No because all you do is collect coins No because it cost money for other stuff No because it looks not worth its graphics or memory. No because there is no shooting No because there isn’t any violence No, because I don’t like flying games. No, it’s boring No. I can’t kill anything Too Busy 3. How much would you be willing to pay for DLC for this game? 39 Sortable Responses Notes: Responses are listed in order of occurrence then in alphabetical order.I made an effort to categorize the responses by price range.Comments: 9X – Nothing 8 X – $5 4 X – $10 2 X -- $20 2 X -- $8 2 X – $5-10 $40 1 cent 15 bucks 240 ms points (3 dollars) 600 pts. As much as needed. Cost too much Free I have no idea. I would buy the DLC only if it was less expensive I wouldn’t No money, can’t buy No more than $20 Not much, 5 or 6 dollars Range Table Nothing – 13X – 33%< 5$ – 2X – 5%$5 – 8X – 21%$5-$10 – 6X – 15%$10 – 4X – 10%$15 – 1X – 3%$20 – 3X – 8%> $20 – 2X – 5%(sorry, my MS Word table didn't translate well graphically)4. Do you think you would get bored with this game? 42 ResponsesYes: 22 – 52%Comments: 3 X – After a while Eventually Flying would get boring I get bored easily. Yes. Over a long period of time Probably Yes very fast (sad face) 5 year olds Yes very quickly Yes, after a while. Yes…quickly No: 9 – 21%Comments: Flying is fun. Not really it looks cool Not Definitive: 11 – 26%Comments: 4 X – Maybe After a while I would. But it would be a good alternative when I got bored with other games. After maybe a few months but if I got the DLCs then no. I don’t know probably because I like the Wii and that’s about it. I will have to play it first. It depends what I feel. Maybe if I can’t play multiplayer. Possibly. It would be cool if you could walk around. Unsolicited Follow-Up Comments: Great graphics. How come there’s no stuff to shoot? I’m in Civil Air Patrol. I already use flight simulator there. I can’t wait to try this. Okay, I hope you have fun with this data (no fighting kids). And, I'm outta here (didn't get my invitation to the birthday party).

Hi, Fsau. Your post articulates why I came to this subforum recently. I had been enjoying FSX for a few years now, for better or worse. I just thought there had to be something better (tried XP, not for me). But, the promise of a new simulator from MS that might just perform better than FSX had me intrigued. And, the preview screenshots showed good aircraft in good scenery without any visual cues to a game aspect (the dreaded gold coins). So, I followed the trail to AVSIM to learn more. Unfortunately, I arrived just in time to get the lowdown on Tom's field trip to Redmond and the subsequent letdowns regarding CES.So, what am I to do? After sleeping on it, I decided that it was time to leave the subforum. I mean this really should be a place for people to get advice, post screenshots, and share their experiences with Flight. And, I respect that. Besides, some of the exchanges have become personal.However, I suggested in my post above that there truly are "patriots on both sides" of the issues around Flight. I edited it out of my original post, but I suggested, tongue in cheek, that Tom create two different sub-forums. One could be for the usual Flight related sharing and helping, the other could be for venting.And, venting, not the personal attacks, is actually helpful. In one way, it helps some of us to express our frustration with what we believe are miscommunications and unfulfilled expectations from MS. It also identifies opportunities for MS to correct misperceptions and to hear ideas that might enhance the product and attract an even wider customer base. Or it would, if MS were really listening. It just seems like we're all talking to ourselves.So, thanks for your thoughtful post. But, I'll be going now.

Yes, but not for an updated and improved platform as Flight may be becasue it is a closed system (unless I am misunderstanding this). And, per my post to you in another thread, I will give Flight a try, too.

On my way out the door... Tom, at this point in this forum, it's all blather. And, I'll include my own posts in that. Actually, the mood in here has gone black, it's virulent. And, yes, I just read your Get A Grip post. In fact, I'm having to edit this post right now because I hadn't seen your post first. In my previous edition, I wished you luck in trying to bring reason back to this forum. I also suggested that there were "patriots on both sides" of the issues. However, I can't argue with Rush. Seriously, he should be able to get that information without being accosted. How can one disagree that this subforum should be about Flight to support its users?It's just all too bad. I became hopeful about Flight. I heard about improvements in the program (two steps forward), but the geographical and functional limitations don't work for me (one step back, or maybe two, or three). I still will give it an honest try, but until I'm able to recreate what I currently enjoy in FSX, I'm not really interested. So, therefore, until I'm a user, I really have no need to post in this forum. Got it.But, I can't shake the feeling that the door is hitting me in the arse on the way out. Why? Because I drank Josh's Kool-Aid. I had convinved myself, in some sort of delusion, that Flight was the next step in the legacy of the franchise (can you hear the marketing speak now?). I felt that people like me -- like my friend Doctor Jim and my late, great friend George Stevens -- who had become more serious about MSFS might actually be stakeholders again after the disbanding of ACES. Nope. Not now. And, Josh Howard's revealing passage in yesterday's interview regarding "hard-core" simmers and whole world scenery was the coup-de-grace. Now, Tom, I bet even you can feel the sting of that one.Oh, well, back to your original point, Tom. It's all talk. No, it's all blather. Okay, good luck riding out the turbulence. Regards -- Dana

It's all talk anyway, Bill. And, it's not like anyone in Redmond is listening. Plus, it would be better for my ulcer to not have my expectations lifted then dropped every few days. One day it's look for the hidden folders and those leading just-wait-and-see comments by the beta-testers, the next it's the end of the quickest beta in history and the announcement of a leap year release date and some sort of paltry DLC offering (maybe April 1st would have been a better red letter day). Oh, and don't forget to add the unending polyanna commentary from Josh and the Amazing Technicolor Spin Machine just for spite. Damnit, I'm monologuing again in vent mode. Sorry. Oh, well, I'll find the door on my own. Or, maybe I'll stick around for some more entertainment until the forum is flushed.

Yes, I'd like to enjoy a more powerful rendering engine and an expanded flight model, too (the beta-testers have suggested this is true). But, it's the "deliver the rest" part that I doubt. It's just a bummer that there may be improvements to the mechanics of the sim, I mean game, but I won't be able to enjoy them unless I fly in Hawaii. And, yes, I know there's room for expansion. But, how long will it take and how much will it cost me? I'm just frustrated that MS has dangled the carrot of improvements, but limited the content. Good posts, Mike. It's maddening. It seems that the objectives of the program changed during development (based on what we have read from PMDG and Orbx), but MS as recently as December propagated the lie that there was something of value for legacy users. I know we are in a world where lies are de rigeur, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Okay, before I even read any possible responses to my post...Do you ever write one of those letters because you're incredibly angry and you were supposed to put it in the desk drawer until you aren't seeing red? Uh, perhaps I should have held off because I see holes in my own logic. However, I'm still unhappy with what Mr. Howard had to say in the originally quoted interview. Chalk it up to Blog Rage.

I just read the full interview. Howard: The bet we've made is that to the non-hardcore simmer, flying the whole world isn't as interesting when there's nothing really interesting to see or do. I do get that for some segment of the audience that was one of the values - I can fly anywhere, into any airport, 25,000-odd airports was crazy."The bet we've made..." Crap. I'm on the losing side of a bet."There's nothing really interesting to see or do..." Hmmm, I like it. I guess I should get out more."25,000 odd airports was crazy..." Yup. I'm crazy. Get the straightjacket.Yup, Flight is a game-changer (pun fully intended). We're done, Josh. You just don't understand that the miracle of flight does not lie in looking at pretty scenery. If that were the case, you should have made a hot air balloon simulator to enjoy the natural beauty of Hawaii. And, no, it wasn't about the Wright Brothers travelling a hundred feet or so. The miracle of flight is about freedom and the amazing power to make the world smaller. It's about the astounding feat that a heavier-than-air craft can start in one corner of the world and take you some tens, hundreds, or even thousands of miles away in a matter of hours while you are able to witness the beauty of said world from the same point of view as the birds. And, to unravel the mysteries, to fully appreciate how this is possible, you need to understand and be able to recreate the science and the process that is making an aircraft fly. And, if you can't witness this miracle yourself, you can imagine it. No, we're lucky, because we can go a step further, we can simulate it. And, that I will argue is why some of us love flight simulation. It's not about collecting coins, it's about the freedom to go anywhere we choose to go on this earth from the amazing vantage point of our computer screen.

Thanks for the laugh, Corinoco. However, you may be right considering the the path this thread has taken. And, frankly, I'm turning into a vegetable trying to read all of these threads. See ya.

Hi, RT. As I mentioned in another post, it's going to be a long three weeks. I just hope there's more behind the curtain than Josh Howard and a bunch of flying monkeys (uh, flying pun intended). Okay, see my follow-on thoughts below. Hi,Torium. I appreciated your response. And, I can't disagree with all the quotes you provided as counterpoint (omitted the bulk for brevity). However, a quote is still just a quote, it's talk, it's a sound byte. I know these are hackneyed expressions, but "talking the talk" and "walking the walk" are not the same (and MS doesn't have an entirely clean record on this one). I mean, MSGS can say these things (and yes, I've read most of the quotes), but are they all true, will all aspects of the project come to fruition? (or will the entire project run out of steam and collapse like a deck of cards) Hmmmm, a long, long three weeks (and longer for different DLC) indeed.

Jeez, I'm always late for the party. Uh, what hasn't already been said? +1 Yup. Yikes, father, you really did take a vow of poverty. I paid my share with the XL2.Uh-oh, did I just become a "quoter" unwittingly. Ah, what the hell (sorry padre), it's only talk. It's going to be a long three weeks.

Not much. But, I'm hoping, as some testers have hinted, that Flight will give me some substantial increases in framerates and better secenery quality.Okay, so am I #10 or 11 for giving Flight a chance? (and not being a spokesperson for Josh)

Jim: + 1 Oooops. Uh, to quote my students, "Fail, Epic Fail."

Alain, you're killing me. Uh, not literally, but the ulcer is coming soon if the mysteries of Flight aren't soon revealed. And, yeah, yeah, if you told me what you really know, you'd have to really kill me. Seriously, when can I enjoy the benefits of Flight in my own neighborhood (we're talking KPBG, KBTV, KMHT, KBOS, KPWM)? It's keeping me up at night (see, it's past my bedtime right now). Regards -- Dana

Oh, man. Soooo funny. Thanks for the laugh. -- Dana

Okay, mgh, count me in, too. Now, that's interesting, Bill. I'm looking forward to trying the RV6.But, per my post in another thread, I'm just not that interested in Hawaii. I'm interested in simulating real-world flights in Northern New York and New England.

Hi, Padre. Yup, saw that. But, what if I want the benefits of Flight (better graphics performance), but I don't want to keep flying the same localizer over and over again at PHNL (or wherever that one is)? C'mon, father, give me a sign from the Big Guy (no, not Josh Howard). Yes, I know, the Spanish Inquisition would be called in if you broke the NDA. Okay, half kidding, half serious. Thanks -- Dana

Alain, thanks for the laugh. Perfect timing. Oy vey, Jim. What are we in for? Wait, don't answer that.

Scott, I agree. And, I do see merit in purchasing only the locales, planes, and modules (the much rumored ATC and AI folders) that I want.But, I don't want to fly in Hawaii. And, I don't want to fly a Maule.What do I want? I want some news from Microsoft about how and when they are going to address flight-simulation-specific applications like ATC and AI and NAVAIDS. How much will it cost me to unlock those features (assuming that they are present per beta-tester hints)? And, if I do unlock those features, will they be as good as what the 3rd party developers have spent incredible amounts of time and energy creating?Per your post, that's the value of the 3rd party developers. I'm used to Orbx scenery, Carenado aircraft, MyTraffic Pro AI, and FlyTampa's Logan Airport. If MSGS could provide DLC content as good as that then I'd be the first in line (er, online) to buy my points or whatever I need to purchase them. Uh, that's assuming that the graphics and/or framerates are as improved in Flight as some beta-testers have suggested.Okay, Microsoft, so why not license an SDK with Flight? Your expertise this time was to improve the simulation and/or graphics engine (as allegedly you have done). So, now let others do the value-added work of making exquisite add-ons like those provided by Carenado, Orbx, FlyTampa, and PMDG. I know, I know, we've been down this road before in other threads, and we've even heard from some of the 3rd party developers.So, yes, I see merit in the incremental approach. And, yes, I agree that FSX was "jack of all trades, master of nothing" if you'll pardon the expression. And, yes, I'm glad that Microsoft has created a game that will bring the joy of flight to the masses (per their recent video). But, I just don't know what they have for me and other flight simulation enthusiasts. And, they're not telling us, which is even more frustrating.Do I hope that MSGS has the internal or external talent available to pull off additional content that is worth the money and the wait? Yes, but I'm a doubter.

Great post, Rush. Thanks for sharing your analysis on this. I posted a series of exasperated questions in another thread a few minutes ago regarding the lack of information. It's just maddening. I wish Microsoft would give us a clue...just a crumb about what their plan is. And, yes, I do understand Josh Howard's idea of letting the market guide the development. However, I think Redmond is making a mistake by not sending some sort of message to the "serious" flight simulation community about its intentions regarding some of the bread & butter stuff we take for granted in FSX (like AI, ATC, NAVAIDS). Just let us know one way or the other, Microsoft, just end our suffering. In any case, I hope you're right. I hope Flight is as good as some of the beta testers have telegraphed. And, I hope that we can get access to the AI, ATC, and NAVAIDS at a fair price (yes, fair is open to interpretation). Again, great post. Thanks. -- Dana

+1 C'mon, Josh, tell us where this is all going? Do you folks at MSGS even have a plan? You must. So, lay it out for us. Good or bad. Are you people in Redmond serious about having the flight simulation community as customers? Are you going to unlock all these folders full of AI and ATC that beta testers have hinted exist? And, if so, how much is it going to cost us? Surely, someone over there must read these forums. So, let's hear it.

I read my kids the story of Rumplestiltskin last night. It's the one where the damsel spins straw into gold. I'm not sure if we'll get straw or gold out of Redmond this time (hoping for the latter), but Joshua Howard is a master of spin. I mean every quote of his I've read is pure marketing gold. He's always on message and the message is that Flight is the best thing since sliced bread.Just for discussion:"Marketing is what you do when your product is no good." -- Edwin Land

I hope you're right, Monsignor, I hope you're right. I was a hair-on-fire guy when the news first came out, but I'm crossing my fingers and trying to read between the lines right now. BTW, I applied for the beta out of curiosity (yes, curiosity killed the cat, but inquiring minds want to know).

Thanks for posting pix, Oliver. I'll take the FSX shots over the XP ones. I tried XP10 and thought the detail at KSEA was impressive. However, once off the ground, I wasn't convinced. Again, good comparisons. Thanks.