>Even if they do drop cost, by the time one adds up a decent>DDR2 proc, motherboard, memory and VC they will probably find>they could spend a few hundred more and get into a decent i7>system with room to grow. Which brings up the question how much room will one have to

Nick - I wish I'd saved the reference but I recall reading that some folks were having a problem with the new mobo's regarding form factor - not fitting properly in some cases - meaning slots don't line up with holes in chassis, etc.Have you heard anyhting on this?ThanxQ9650 E0 CPU 3.0 o/c 4.06Asus Rampage Extreme X48 4G XP2-18200 DDR3 1800FSB Mushkin 996587 RAM 8-8-8-24-1T1-74G Raptor - XP System1-74G Raptor - Data1-320G 7200 - Programs 1-150G Raptor - FSX 1-500G 7200 HD for backup SATA DVD burner Evga 8800GTS 640 PCIx XG 174.74 702/1620/792Kandalf LCS case w/ built in liquid cooling 850W Thermaltake power supplyHannsG 28" 1920x1200Viewsonic 22" 1680x1050http://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-supporter-sigbanner.jpg

thanks for the info. Nick. the 4870 (1gb.mem.) card that i'm using doesn't handle heavy clouds much better (if any) than the 3870 that i had. probably the reason they weren't that much more price-wise than the 3870's when they were released. happy flyin, fm

The only reason one would forgo 1600 and just get 1333 is becasue they have decide with all certainty "I am not going to ever clock this processor"

OK, Nick, you've convinced me. I'm going with the 1600 and the 965. My last question now that I've settled on this combo is: If I use the 1600 and don't OC the processor right now are there any adjustments that need to be made on a P6T mobo for that memory to work properly?I'm planning on getting Muskin, either #998679, 7-8-7-20 or #998681, 8-8-8-24. I'm assuming the 7-8-7-20 would be the best, correct?Also, I see where CoolerMaster has just come out with a heatsink/fan setup for the i7. Are you familiar with that and, if so, do you still think the Thermalright would be the better of the two? And would the stock heatsink/fan be good for moderate OC, say to 3.6GHz. or so?Thanks,Jeff

Thanks guys, a GREAT thread and lots of information about the i7. I am planning on getting the i7 in a short while, so thanks again for the info. I am hanging on to every word you are saying.Abe

OK, Nick, you've convinced me. I'm going with the 1600 and the 965. My last question now that I've settled on this combo is: If I use the 1600 and don't OC the processor right now are there any adjustments that need to be made on a P6T mobo for that memory to work properly?I'm planning on getting Muskin, either #998679, 7-8-7-20 or #998681, 8-8-8-24. I'm assuming the 7-8-7-20 would be the best, correct?Also, I see where CoolerMaster has just come out with a heatsink/fan setup for the i7. Are you familiar with that and, if so, do you still think the Thermalright would be the better of the two? And would the stock heatsink/fan be good for moderate OC, say to 3.6GHz. or so?Thanks,Jeff

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820227366I dont know anything about the Coolmaster 1366 heatsinksI use the 120 Extreme 1366 and have no other information about i7 coolers at this timeYou will be able to use the default HSF to a certain point.. how far I can not estimate

>>You would need to make that call. The 965 would be the easier>processor to clock and you could make a simple multiplier>change on the stock heatsink and gain another 300-400MHz on>the 965 giving you a 570-670MHz gain over the 940 unclocked.>Then again you could do some clocking with the 940 and>probably match that on the factory HSF, perhaps a bit less.>Thanks, Nick. I guess I'll go ahead and get the 965 simply for the fact that "if" I decide to OC then it would be easier to do. Also, since now OC is a possibility is there any downside to installing 1600 RAM now even if I don't OC instead of the 1333 which I was going to get? In other words, can I just throw it in there or will I still have to make some adjustments for it to be usable? I realize it wouldn't be using its full potential without OC, but would be available later if needed. Or can I moderately OC using 1333?Sorry for all the questions (hopefully they'll be useful for others,too), but I'm new to the OC stuff and have been reading a lot on the procedure for the i7 now that you've got me interested.

Thi snew forum is acting strange... has me as a guest aboveyou can clock that 940 just like the 965... you just have to use Bclock and raise it instead of the CPU multiplier... then set the memory multipler so it equates to a value at or under 1600... its a memory setting based on the CPU multipler so the memory is adjustable as you change CPU speed. It requires a few more settings to deal with. Going 965 is very expensive and you must still set Vcore with it should you decide to clock it. So I would think about that and do some reading about 940 clocking before commiting to that cost

Thi snew forum is acting strange... has me as a guest aboveyou can clock that 940 just like the 965... you just have to use Bclock and raise it instead of the CPU multiplier... then set the memory multipler so it equates to a value at or under 1600... its a memory setting based on the CPU multipler so the memory is adjustable as you change CPU speed. It requires a few more settings to deal with. Going 965 is very expensive and you must still set Vcore with it should you decide to clock it. So I would think about that and do some reading about 940 clocking before commiting to that cost

Thanks very much, Nick for all of this great help you're giving me and the rest of the guys on here. I went to the last Newegg link you sent, but it happened to be for the OCZ 1333 memory. I'm going to check and see if OCZ has 1600 in the CAS7 range and, if not, I'll go with 6G of Mushkin 1600 7-8-7-20.Well, I really appreciate that you're trying to save me some money on this deal with the 940. Unforturnately (or fortunately, who knows), I just purchased a 965 today at Micro Center for $999 (they didn't have the 940 yet). I figured at that price is was about a $400 difference which I felt I could stomach. Now I may end up taking it back for a 940. Decisions, decisions.The rest will be a P6T Deluxe mobo, GTX 280, PC Power and Cooling 750W PSU, and I'm going with your suggestion on the Thermalright heatsink/fan. Hopefully in a week this will all be assembled in a CM690 case and I'll be flying.If you're ever in Houston, dinner's on me. :)Jeff

Thanks very much, Nick for all of this great help you're giving me and the rest of the guys on here. I went to the last Newegg link you sent, but it happened to be for the OCZ 1333 memory. I'm going to check and see if OCZ has 1600 in the CAS7 range and, if not, I'll go with 6G of Mushkin 1600 7-8-7-20.Well, I really appreciate that you're trying to save me some money on this deal with the 940. Unforturnately (or fortunately, who knows), I just purchased a 965 today at Micro Center for $999 (they didn't have the 940 yet). I figured at that price is was about a $400 difference which I felt I could stomach. Now I may end up taking it back for a 940. Decisions, decisions.The rest will be a P6T Deluxe mobo, GTX 280, PC Power and Cooling 750W PSU, and I'm going with your suggestion on the Thermalright heatsink/fan. Hopefully in a week this will all be assembled in a CM690 case and I'll be flying.If you're ever in Houston, dinner's on me. :)Jeff

Sorry about that Jeff... I posted the wrong linkhttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820227365They are CAS8 for 3x2GBSo yes, the Mushkin at 3x2GB DDR3 1600 CAS7 IS the better choice because of the CAS rating.. excellent find http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=730I understand 1866 is on its way as well as 2000 memory next year all of which can be used by adjusting the memory multipler and clockIts really not that hard to clock 940 but there is a bit more of a learning curve to it. 400 dollars buys a lot of classes :)All I did with 965 was set vcore to 1.45, multiplier to x26, and it runs 4GHz although memory ran by default a bit less than 1600 in option which is fine because I trimmed memory timing a bit. Between 1333-1600 Memory speed is not as important as timing with i7. You need the higher speed memory to allow a greater range of available options in clocking but when the upper end product gets released such as 1900 and 2000 DDR3 product I do think that will have a solid impact on perf

Hi Nick_NI definately think that Intel should hire you on the spot :( I have been following your post`s with great interrest, and at least you have convinced me, that i7 is the way to go.I have got an offer for the following system:Processor: Intel Core i7-940, 2,93GHz, 8MB cacheRAM: 6 GB DDR3 DDR3 PC3-12800 XMP KitMainboard: MSI X58 PLATINUM LGA1366, QPI 6,4GT/sHarddisk: Samsung 1TB SATAII/7200 HD103UJ 32 MB CacheDrev: Samsung SH-S223F/BEBE BULK SORT SATA, 22xW/8xRW/48xCDR,32xCDRW,8X DualLayerGPU: MSI Nvidia N280GTX-T2D1G-OC 1024MB DDR3Kabinet: Silverstone TJ04B Miditower BlackPSU: Fortron Source EPSILON 700W 120mm 80PLUSOP: Windows Vista Home Premium 64 BIT OEMWould that cut it, or should something be changed?Many thanks in advance for any eventual replies.Jensen

http://techreport.com/articles.x/15967/1The reviews are continuing to observe that the i7's triple channel bandwidth isn't helping non-scientific/non-synthetic applications. Nor is the use of faster/lower latency DDR3 ram. If the i7 proves a 20-30% clock for clock performance increase over the current core2Q CPUs, a i7/940 at 3.0/DDR3-1600 system will - Still- only provide a subjective performance increase over a core2Q at 3.6/DDR2-800 system. Point being, if a builder wants an - objective - performance increase beyond an old core2Q/800, a i7/920-940 Must be overclocked. In this case, the DDR3-ram speed decision needs to be based on the projected CPU overclock. The ram is still linked to the BCK (FSB) by minimum multipliers. A builder needs to project a FSB, then apply their i7's minimum ram multiplier. This will provide the correct ram speed to purchase. Running ramsticks at any speed beyond that will provide only subjective performance increases. Speed/latency otherwise does not matter. For instance, a 2 ramstick install (dual channel) will provide the same - objective - performance as a 3 ramstick install (triple channel). However, this might not be a recommended setup because a builder might want to add a 3rd stick later. It's looking like the memory subsystem is rather finicky. Three thoroughly matched sticks may still be the way to go for a new build.

Hopefully a volunteer will come forward who will take a stick or two out of their setup to "simulate" dual channel and report back on the differences. The platform is already expensive to begin with, made worse for me by living in the UK where prices are at a premium anyway and the exchange rate drops on a daily basis.If the triple channel can be demonstrated as beneficial to FSX then we have something to consider. If it isn't why would the mainstream i7 platform with dual channel be inferior?RegardsSimon

Hi Nick_NI definately think that Intel should hire you on the spot :( I have been following your post`s with great interrest, and at least you have convinced me, that i7 is the way to go.I have got an offer for the following system:Processor: Intel Core i7-940, 2,93GHz, 8MB cacheRAM: 6 GB DDR3 DDR3 PC3-12800 XMP KitMainboard: MSI X58 PLATINUM LGA1366, QPI 6,4GT/sHarddisk: Samsung 1TB SATAII/7200 HD103UJ 32 MB CacheDrev: Samsung SH-S223F/BEBE BULK SORT SATA, 22xW/8xRW/48xCDR,32xCDRW,8X DualLayerGPU: MSI Nvidia N280GTX-T2D1G-OC 1024MB DDR3Kabinet: Silverstone TJ04B Miditower BlackPSU: Fortron Source EPSILON 700W 120mm 80PLUSOP: Windows Vista Home Premium 64 BIT OEMWould that cut it, or should something be changed?Many thanks in advance for any eventual replies.Jensen

Hi JensenI did not post this information to sell people on i7. I am simply passing on information so those who may be thinking about a change will have good info to work with.As for your question about parts, this is what I would replace in your list if you intend to clockRAM: 6 GB DDR3 DDR3 PC3-12800 XMP Kit - Replace with Mushkin 998679 (3x2GB) XP3-12800 http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=730-or- OCZ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820227365The Muskin is lower latency and will probably provide the most headroom to work the clock PSU: Fortron Source EPSILON 700W 120mm 80PLUS - Replace with PC Power and Cooling 750: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16817703009On the hard drive.. keep in mind those 1TB Samsung 32MB cache drives will only out perform single 1st generation WD Raptors if the Samsung drives are in RAID0. A single 300GB VelociRaptor will not only overtake a 32MB Cache Samsung by a longshot, a single Vraptor will also match or exceed 2 1st Gen WD Raptors in RAID0. In that, the cost is quite reasonable. I highly suggest the VelociRaptor for the OS with FSX installed into it, or, a dedicated MSFS drive which is how I personally run... they come in 150 and 300http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList....on=VelociRaptorI do wish to point out to everyone that unlike Core2 with i7 the higher the overclock the higher the power draw. You CAN NOT skimp on the power supply with i7 in a clock situation. The power consumption goes sky high as you increase the clock....and regarding web articles... I dont see any correctly tested FSX or MSFS information anywhere. Reader, beware of assumptions by websites, reviews or especially forum posters without any experience or knowledge of real world use with i7, let alone any expereince or knowledge of real world use with DDR3 on current quads clocked correctly....as for going cheap.. Thats up to the person purchasing. Its like anything else with MSFS, the more you cut corners the less you get on the screen, period...and last, as I pointed out in my first post and will repeat here: Those coming from AMD and older Intel such as P3/P4 who move to 940 and do not clock should be quite satisfied becasue they are not use to seeing that kind of perf on their old systems. I want to make it perfectly clear however that if you intend to try and go i7 cheap and/or not clock but currently clock Core2 or Q, 3.6-4 on what I consider decent memory and correct settings, ... you wont be satisfied with the cost/perf result.

This makes the point quite clearly. Core2Q/3.6/DDR2-800 v i7/3.0/DDR3-1600 performance differentiation might only occur on the basis of a final bios setup tweak on the i7 platform. Of course the bios would need to be adjusted to get the C2Q to 3.6. However consider, much could (only) timing/voltage adjustments possibly influence the performance of the i7? Certainly a builder might influence results in a synthetic benchmark, but creating objective results might be easily considered highly unlikely. Objective performance occurs on the basis of CPU clock horsepower. O/Cing sites suggested that increases in the FSB speed equaled increased performance. The i7 dropped that FSB from 400Mhz to 133Mhz. Increased memory speed and latency were also presented as a performance enhancer. On very specific, targeted apps this is proven out. But on real world stuff, its all about CPU Clock Horsepower (and Vcards for the Crysis groups). Memory is just along for the ride. Like SATA II for harddrives, and PCIe-v2 for Vcards, 3x memory channels technology is not needed, yet. It will be someday, but not yet. The current memory buss platform is more than enough (Dual Channel). Now we have X3. This is an upgrade revenue event for both Intel and the memory manufactures.

...O/Cing sites suggested that increases in the FSB speed equaled increased performance. The i7 dropped that FSB from 400Mhz to 133Mhz. Increased memory speed and latency were also presented as a performance enhancer. On very specific, targeted apps this is proven out. But on real world stuff, its all about CPU Clock Horsepower (and Vcards for the Crysis groups). Memory is just along for the ride. ...

Sam,I'm no hardware guru like you, but is it correct to compare FSB speeds between i7 and C2D architectures? As far as I've read from articles at AnandTech and other places the i7 architecture really doesn't have any FSB in the conventional way. Is it your opinion that the i7 architecture is slow compared to C2D regarding memory bandwidth?Ulf B