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Major 3D Breakthrough - Maybe MS Bailed To Quickly

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There has been a major breakthrough in the use of 3D that is bound to change the world of gaming. A researcher by the name of Johnny Lee invented this, and has essentially given it to the world. His software was downloaded over a half a million times in the first three months after he released it (due to it's exposure on YouTube). Since about Feruary of 2008 it has now developed into a major industry where the components can all be bought for next to nothing. It sounds to good to be true, but it isn't. A flight simulator done with this support would blow Microsoft's product right out of the water. They surely had to have known about this development, and I wonder if it had an effect on their decision to bail.After you see this, you will know for certain that the world of gaming is going to change...... Big Time !!!!!This is a mini-Susan Boyle in the amount of YouTube website hits for all of his videos. Listen for the laugh he gets in the second video, when he alludes to the powerful magnitude of change from this developement in a talk before a group of game developers..... :( For about 50 bucks, the objects jump right off the screen and out into your room. Amazing !!!! And then you can move past them, putting them behind you. Stay with this. This is definately not another Tracker IR. See:

Buy all the parts for $55.00 .....http://penteractive.us/?gclid=CJCgnfaglJoCFRFMagodxxfVMQBob (Las Cruces, NM)

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i can see great potential for something like this in a flight sim application, the part where objects can appear to go past you in a forward motion can be useful. if this does take off to the mainstream and FS, the $55 in parts you need will retail for $199.99 when someone starts to mass produce this unfortunately. but i dont see any of that happening too quickly

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For about 50 bucks, the objects jump right off the screen and out into your room. Amazing !!!! And then you can move past them, putting them behind you. Stay with this. This is definately not another Tracker IR.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is this not just another TrackIR? Yes it's a good demo but I don't see it doing anything a TrackIR couldn't do (although if your figure of 50 bucks is accurate it's definitely cheaper).Colin

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Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is this not just another TrackIR? Yes it's a good demo but I don't see it doing anything a TrackIR couldn't do (although if your figure of 50 bucks is accurate it's definitely cheaper).Colin
True this is actually TrackIR technology...If you mount the head set of a TrackIR(6dof) on your video camera you'll get the same peculiar effect seen in the video.Pretty cool!

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While I may be wrong, I don't recall Tracker IR adding any real 3-D illusion to games as seen in these videos. As I recall it works with the pseudo 3-D (so named) of a 3-D video card.I would imagine any real application creating a real 3-D effect would call for a complete redo of the game. But the potential is quite startling. Will we see this in a flight simulator ? Who knows. But it certainly puts a big dollar potential out there for somebody.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

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There has been a major breakthrough in the use of 3D that is bound to change the world of gaming. A researcher by the name of Johnny Lee invented this, and has essentially given it to the world. His software was downloaded over a half a million times in the first three months after he released it (due to it's exposure on YouTube). Since about Feruary of 2008 it has now developed into a major industry where the components can all be bought for next to nothing. It sounds to good to be true, but it isn't. A flight simulator done with this support would blow Microsoft's product right out of the water. They surely had to have known about this development, and I wonder if it had an effect on their decision to bail.After you see this, you will know for certain that the world of gaming is going to change...... Big Time !!!!!This is a mini-Susan Boyle in the amount of YouTube website hits for all of his videos. Listen for the laugh he gets in the second video, when he alludes to the powerful magnitude of change from this developement in a talk before a group of game developers..... :( For about 50 bucks, the objects jump right off the screen and out into your room. Amazing !!!! And then you can move past them, putting them behind you. Stay with this. This is definately not another Tracker IR. See:
Buy all the parts for $55.00 .....http://penteractive.us/?gclid=CJCgnfaglJoCFRFMagodxxfVMQBob (Las Cruces, NM)
That's the first time I've ever seen a cool 3-d effect without 3-d glasses--it actually seemed like the one set of objects was floating in front of the screen. I've heard of other applications for the Wii remote and sensor bar, but this is certainly unique. Regards,John

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People, the 3D effect WAS because of the video camera in combination of the demo rendering, this thing does NOT add 3D effects to any games. The only reason why it seems 3D is becuase he used targets with lines in a grid to show the effect. If he used the technology in FSX, it would be like TRACKIR, nothing more nothing less. This definitely could have been performed on TrackIR and you would get the same effect, with the same demo rendering. It is still the SAME technology in TrackIR, maybe just a bit cheaper. TrackIR uses a camera that sends infrared beams which is then reflected by those 3 bars placed on the hat. It does all 6DOF motions demonstrated in the video. TrackIR does the whole X, Y, and Z axis. Again IF he used trackIR with the rendering software you would get the SAME results. Some people might have to study a bit on technology or how TrackIR works before they get it. (No offense, you literally have to read about how trackIR works to understand. Google is your friend ;)) The rendering program that he used to DISPLAY how the wiimote works, is the reason why it seems 3D. It is not the Wii mote or the sensor bar. In other words, it is the software and the video camera exaggerates it even more. If he released the program that he used to demonstrate the scene to the public, all the people with TrackIR would be able to do the SAME exact thing.

While I may be wrong, I don't recall Tracker IR adding any real 3-D illusion to games as seen in these videos. As I recall it works with the pseudo 3-D (so named) of a 3-D video card.I would imagine any real application creating a real 3-D effect would call for a complete redo of the game. But the potential is quite startling. Will we see this in a flight simulator ? Who knows. But it certainly puts a big dollar potential out there for somebody.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)
The 3D effect was the rendering of the scene :(, not the hardware (wiimote, "sensor bar"). They did not add any "3D" effect that trackIR can't do, it just sends signals to a senor, than the sensor converts that into code for the PC, which is then converted into mouse movements or "hat switch"/6DOF movements. Sorry to burst your bubble. TrackIR does not use any 3D graphics card, just basically the same thing the wiimote does, but in a better way. It uses an infrared camera, a bar with 3 reflectors that was specifically made to be placed on the head, and software to convert the movements from real life to mouse/hat switch, etc. Nothing other than that. If it had a 3D video card, or pseudo, whatever you like to call it, it would be incredibly expensive, and there would be no point of using it. He used targets in a square box to make users see what is possible with 6DOF solutions and what the can do for a game, but if he were to use the wiimote, or TrackIR in FSX. You would not get the 3D effect, because unlike a target on screen that looks like it is on a horizontal pole, things in a cockpit of a plane do not pop out, or they just don't have enough depth to make it look like its coming out of the screen.

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Gman....I must admit that I too am skeptical. I don't see the connection to 3-D either. But he makes a point in all of his videos that a 3-D effect exists and that the screen no longer appears "flat" in real life when no camera is used.Then to your camera point. That camera passes an object in space and gets behind it where the object is completely out of view. As Andy Griffith has always insisted upon as his key to succeed in movies and I quote, "You can't fool a camera, it sees everything". Also, he shows the image from the same camera before switching on the sensor, and it's completely flat.As a doubter myself I have searched Google and so far have not found anyone to support your point of view on this subject.But I do remain a doubter myself.The only possible explanation I can muster, is that the image itself is software calculated based on the known head position which it gets from the sensor. That's why I think a game would have to be specially "coded" for use with this device. That could present real drawbacks and limitations. But it might be a very clever break through too.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

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Gman is right!I'm using TrackIR and it gives me the perfect 3D simulation in VC. If I change the settings in TrackIR to very aggressive, I may lean forward and go past the yoke and have my nose inches from the panel. I may also stick my head out of the side window. No problem.

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Gman is right!I'm using TrackIR and it gives me the perfect 3D simulation in VC. If I change the settings in TrackIR to very aggressive, I may lean forward and go past the yoke and have my nose inches from the panel. I may also stick my head out of the side window. No problem.
Sure, in TrackIR it is called 6DOF (with Truvision technology, if my memory serves me righ). You can even poke out from the cockpit's window and look what's behind. Just try it in BoB2, it's amazing. So, old news all together. Flock to Natualpoint's store may I suggest to those who haven't bought it yet.I'm only concerned there's no adequate competition in the market currently. Otherwise it's a musthave for any gamer nowadays.Thanks,Dirk.

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There is competition: http://www.simw.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=d...ls&pid=2084Sorry for the hijack.
Tord,It seems that Hat Track works in a different way compared to TrackIR. You attach the transmitter to a headset and the receiver is placed on the monitor. Is the transmitter cordless (powered by a battery)? I couldn't find any info on this in the manual.

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Ulf, this is a snip from this review."Now that you're all set up, it's time to connect the cables. As I said, the receiver is attached to the main USB cable and the transmitter is hooked up by a 9mm jack. Halfway along the USB cable is a splitter for the transmitter to plug in to. Once done, simply connect the cable into the USB slot, using the extender if necessary."From this review it works just as well as the TrackIR for MSFS only at half the price of a TrackIR. Adequate or not, well that depends on ones needs ;)

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Ulf, this is a snip from this review."Now that you're all set up, it's time to connect the cables. As I said, the receiver is attached to the main USB cable and the transmitter is hooked up by a 9mm jack. Halfway along the USB cable is a splitter for the transmitter to plug in to. Once done, simply connect the cable into the USB slot, using the extender if necessary."From this review it works just as well as the TrackIR for MSFS only at half the price of a TrackIR. Adequate or not, well that depends on ones needs ;)
Tord,Thanks for your reply. The transmitter is not cordless and you nead a headseat to attach it. The TrackIR only needs the reflection points to be attached to a cap and no need of any cords. I'll stick to my TrackIR, since it's superior to my needs.

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Gman....I must admit that I too am skeptical. I don't see the connection to 3-D either. But he makes a point in all of his videos that a 3-D effect exists and that the screen no longer appears "flat" in real life when no camera is used.Then to your camera point. That camera passes an object in space and gets behind it where the object is completely out of view. As Andy Griffith has always insisted upon as his key to succeed in movies and I quote, "You can't fool a camera, it sees everything". Also, he shows the image from the same camera before switching on the sensor, and it's completely flat.As a doubter myself I have searched Google and so far have not found anyone to support your point of view on this subject.But I do remain a doubter myself.The only possible explanation I can muster, is that the image itself is software calculated based on the known head position which it gets from the sensor. That's why I think a game would have to be specially "coded" for use with this device. That could present real drawbacks and limitations. But it might be a very clever break through too.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)
The sensor is just telling the computer where the "camera" or the viewpoint is by detecting infrared beams, it does not give the scene any "3D" effect. It is the same as any other 6DOF solution. You have to understand how a scene is rendered to see that it is the "computer" instead of the sensor/wiimote. If you had the SAME scene with the targets on a "pole" with TrackIR, you would get the SAME results, heck you can even do it with a mouse and keyboard, except it would be difficult. The sensor/wiimote is not giving it any "3D" look, it is the computer or if you understand, the scene rendered. He used the targets mounted in space to clearly show what 6DOF can do for a virtual environment. If he used the sensor/wiimote with FS it would be exactly the same as TrackIR. The video camera also makes the effect point out even more, because a video camera is not a human eye. In real life, he would NOT see any "3D" effects or targets coming out of the screen. Again, this does not create any 3D effect, nor is it a breakthrough unfortunately. It is just a very cheap alternative to TrackIR, which is not as mature, with lots of software/developer support. Search the youtube comments for TrackIR and you will see what I mean. ("see all comments").Almost forgot. EVERYTHING displayed on a screen, will ALWAYS be 2D

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There is a better alternative:free-track.netThe software is free, runs great in FSX and other programs (I've been using it for about two years with no complaints), and, as the OP may be interested to know, can be used with a WII via bluetooth for 6DOF head tracking.

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The sensor is just telling the computer where the "camera" or the viewpoint is by detecting infrared beams, it does not give the scene any "3D" effect. It is the same as any other 6DOF solution. You have to understand how a scene is rendered to see that it is the "computer" instead of the sensor/wiimote. If you had the SAME scene with the targets on a "pole" with TrackIR, you would get the SAME results, heck you can even do it with a mouse and keyboard, except it would be difficult. The sensor/wiimote is not giving it any "3D" look, it is the computer or if you understand, the scene rendered. He used the targets mounted in space to clearly show what 6DOF can do for a virtual environment. If he used the sensor/wiimote with FS it would be exactly the same as TrackIR. The video camera also makes the effect point out even more, because a video camera is not a human eye. In real life, he would NOT see any "3D" effects or targets coming out of the screen. Again, this does not create any 3D effect, nor is it a breakthrough unfortunately. It is just a very cheap alternative to TrackIR, which is not as mature, with lots of software/developer support. Search the youtube comments for TrackIR and you will see what I mean. ("see all comments").Almost forgot. EVERYTHING displayed on a screen, will ALWAYS be 2D
You are telling me what I just saw in that You tube is all a lie! Yes, I know 3D images is 2D in real life. Its the perception of it that matters. Thats like someone telling me that the Flight Sim is not real. :)This is not the same as Track IR stuff. I have Track IR. There are some elements/featuers that are in Track IR. To me this looks like this is 3D without the 3D glasses!

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Although it does look a lot like the targets are coming off the screen in that demo video, as others have pointed out, it is the shape and pattern of them against the grid which enhances the 3D look. As far as using that sort of thing with virtual cockpits is concerned, it is no different from Track-IR. But...If any of you have ever tried EDimensional's 3D shutter glasses, you will know that it really is possible to get a genuine 'coming off the screen' effect with those things, because they emulate the parallax separation of a target from two different eye viewpoints, and simulating parallax is the only way you really will see something in three dimensions. Expensive dual layer monitors can emulate that 3D shutter effect too, without the glasses, but they are still simulating parallax.I tried that with a few FS aircraft years ago and the effect of the throttles and yoke jumping into 3D space in the default DC-3 cockpit was startling, although to be honest it does kind of have a 'pop up book' feel about it, which is nevertheless quite exciting. less convincing however, is the notion that what you see below you through the cockpit windows is thousands of feet away, because as with the real world, from up high you are looking onto an essentially flat plane, where the parallax effect cannot help to emulate depth, although if there is an intermediate could layer, that can indeed look pretty convincing.Where the real problems begin however with flight sims is that it is difficult to use your keyboard when using EDimensional's shutter glasses (and unless you have one of those expensive dual layer monitors, you're screwed on this front), so you do need a virtual cockpit where everything is very easily clickable, and some keys assigned to your joystick, because you are effectively shut out visually from the real world. It can make using things such as the mouse to change radio frequencies difficult, although I may revisit that sort of thing because virtual copilots whom you can command with voice could change the radios etc, and that might make it more practical. Before such things were reliable enough to consider for daily use, that limitation made 3D effects nothing more than a novelty in FS as far as practicality went for all but the most basic cockpits, where no switches needed to be operated.Reliable voice control, good virtual cockpits and some means to convey a genuine 3D space could make flight simming very much more realistic, and those technologies are all already here, which means the Wii malarkey we see in that video is certainly not a massive breakthrough except in terms of exposing the kind of thing Track-IR etc can do to a wider user base, which the Wii console undoubtedly has in comparison to users of Track-IR on PC flight sims.It's good to see that sort of thing coming through to a wider audience though, although I'm one of those people who tends to think that a lot of the stuff on the Wii is totally pointless, in that it often has applications which are perfectly possible to do in the real world without it. This video sums up that ethos:

Al

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You are telling me what I just saw in that You tube is all a lie! Yes, I know 3D images is 2D in real life. Its the perception of it that matters. Thats like someone telling me that the Flight Sim is not real. :)This is not the same as Track IR stuff. I have Track IR. There are some elements/featuers that are in Track IR. To me this looks like this is 3D without the 3D glasses!
Manny,If you build yourself a VC for FSX with targets attached to white pins, you'll get exactly the same experience with that panel and TrackIR as with the you tube demo. There is no magic about this.

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While not claiming to be an expert on this, I know what I see, and this is not any Tracker IR. As most of you probably know, this illusion has been used at Disneyland in Orlando for many years and is quite spectacular. Tracker ID or any other head tracker does not create any depth illusion. That's why this has attracted 6.5 million YouTube hits.So having done a little research this morning I find that Tracker IR and this device are two totally different things. Tracker IR is a head position device, with panning capability. This application is a "Window Portal" device with no panning capability. The end use is completely different unless the game is built for it.From what I read, a true 3-D illusion with spacial effect can be created in such a window portal device, creating a realistic illusion of depth and space. I further read that this illusion is dependant upon head movement, which tricks the brain into believing it sees depth from "expectation". Some believe that this requirement for head movement is a problem for game developers, where others think that the game developers will create the need for this movement in the game itself.One more thing......April 20,2009About MeJohnny Chung Lee I am currently a researcher in the Applied Sciences group at Microsoft. I recently graduated from Carnegie Mellon University with a PhD in Human-Computer Interaction. My research interests are in creating enabling techniques that can significantly increase the accessibility of technology.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

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While not claiming to be an expert on this, I know what I see, and this is not any Tracker IR. As most of you probably know, this illusion has been used at Disneyland in Orlando for many years and is quite spectacular. Tracker ID or any other head tracker does not create any depth illusion. That's why this has attracted 6.5 million YouTube hits.So having done a little research this morning I find that Tracker IR and this device are two totally different things. Tracker IR is a head position device, with panning capability. This application is a "Window Portal" device with no panning capability. The end use is completely different unless the game is built for it.From what I read, a true 3-D illusion with spacial effect can be created in such a window portal device, creating a realistic illusion of depth and space. I further read that this illusion is dependant upon head movement, which tricks the brain into believing it sees depth from "expectation". Some believe that this requirement for head movement is a problem for game developers, where others think that the game developers will create the need for this movement in the game itself.One more thing......April 20,2009About MeJohnny Chung Lee I am currently a researcher in the Applied Sciences group at Microsoft. I recently graduated from Carnegie Mellon University with a PhD in Human-Computer Interaction. My research interests are in creating enabling techniques that can significantly increase the accessibility of technology.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)
For the last time this and trackIR ARE THE SAME THING. They are BOTH 6DOF head position trackers. You HAVE to understand technology and the way objects are rendered in a 3D evnironment on a computer to understand this. To make it easier to understand, the SCENE with the targets on pins in combination with a video camera is what makes you THINK its 3D in the video, but in real life, it does NOT look like its comming out of the screen from the human eye. To get the 3D effect you need to have a 3D device that takes the image encodes them in 3D with red/blue, red/green. That is why you need the 3D glasses. This is NOT 3D, nor does it have a 3D effect for the last time. You will NEVER be able to see something looking like it is coming out of the screen with the human eye without a special 3D video device that does the red/green thing, and the wiimote/sensor bar does NOT use that. All it is 6DOF tracking simple as that, enough said. I will not argue anymore, because it seems like no one understands.Applied sciences at Microsoft does not mean anything to me, or most people that know about technology, because anyone can do this easily. It has been done SOO many times. NaturalPoint, which is the manufacturer of TrackIR is the first company to patent the technology back in 1997.(but they patented it in the way THEY [NaturalPoint] use it, so Johnny is not violating any patents)

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I will not argue anymore, because it seems like no one understands.
Thank you. :(

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