Toys_R_Us

I have gotten to the point that I mostly enjoy a slow moving single engine airplane like a 172 and just shooting touch and goes around wherever I want to be, while taking in all the world has to offer by day and by night. I do like to have some good mesh in place. Having viewed the screen shots, this thing looks awfully good to me for that purpose. I'm just waiting on video card recommendations at this point before ordering a new machine to use this new program. And when the Rift gets here this is going to be over-the-top awesome under any scenario. Bob - Las Cruces, NM.

Since the early 1980's, all attempts to limit program use have failed. I do see a future in "the cloud" for some uses and applications. But let's take a serious look at real flight simulation as it relates to this issue. As Microsoft heads to the closed architecture of the cloud, other major game players in flight simulation are reacting by going exactly the opposite way. And now the major third party software developers are getting on board with these people. Orbx even now includes a dual license (FSX and Prepar3d) and a whopping 44 percent discount. Prepar3d is even developing Window's 8's DX11 for FSX, while now also including a new $49 version and "all user" classification. Then the hardware people such as Intel are reacting to consumer needs by creating super fast chips with 1.4 billion transistors and speed inprovements, simplified overclocking, and even a cheap overclocker's chip destruction insurance protection plan for just $29 bucks. They say the new Ivy bridge "K" version can even be overclocked clear up to 4.5 GH with just one slider movement in the included bios. And huge on-chip caches, massive dirt cheap RAM, and dramatically improved data movement from SS drives and double transfer-speed hard drives are the rule. For every action, there is a reaction. It was true before, and it is still true now, That is going on in flight simulation as well. In fact, the things I describe above are the direction I am taking as a result. I can give up a little extra cartoon style eye candy for full-world, real world, and full-industry functionality. Remember... Purchasing Alaska from MS, is the same as adding a whopping discount to a third party developer in FSX for the same terrain. A lot of people forget that when they buy a 12 dollar T-bone at the grocery store...... :LMAO: Bob

In my opinion, the "make it simple" argument as the main purpose for the existence of Flight is ludicrous. Flight simulators as we knew them are computer programs only, and as such the simplicity of a "Flight" could have been built right into an FS11 as an menu option choice. Ditto that for gameplay. Flight is about taking an open architecture program and turning it into a closed architecture program, for the purpose of closed-door profit. That is what the movement to the "cloud", dedicated game boxes, and "freemium" offerings by virtually all the big software developers is all about. Even Adobe is headed that way. That being said, there is no guarantee that this is not just another passing fad. Personally, I think it is..... except for certain cell phone, game box, and tablet applications. The reality is, Flight is "dumbed down" and "content limited" by about 95 percent, and now we will be asked to pay for every increment to get back to where an FSX, with third-party payware add-ons, was/is ! Bob - Las Cruces, NM

Somehow I think we all got to calling Flight the wrong thing. Listening to the Kim Komando radio show today, she responded to a caller question about marketing software by remarked that the "in" business model used today by many to maybe even most new software offerings is known in the software industry as "freemium". Said Kim, the business plan is to "Give it away for free, in hopes of selling premium add-on's. Knowing what we know now, Flight is clearly predicated on the "freemium" business model which is the current rage among both big and little software suits.There is much to be read on this subject by doing a Google search on the term "freemium". This may clarify for some why Flight was done in the manner it was done. These articles discuss strategy, offerings, rate of expansion, how to sell, who to sell to, how it's done, selling by word of mouth (networking to fellow group users), etc.The modern version of this very popular software business model was started by well-known venture capitalist Fred Wilson around 2006.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemiumhttp://www.avc.com/a_vc/2009/07/freemium-and-freeconomics.htmlBob - Las Cruces, NM

I notice this immediately in the beta release and am surprised it was not fixed. Long time FSX (I think it was this version) people will remember the same problem and it was fixed.Bob - LCNM

I was a beta tester, and I flew in the product. I have not downloaded the final version and have no intention of doing so for now. Will I download and play this game. Yes I will. But that will not happen until I see an airplane I like, full ILS support, and an area I want to fly in. If the pricing remains like it is now, I will stay out all together and throw my money at FSX which is coming into it's own on much better hardware, especially since everyone is now courting over-clocker's money too.I have no problem with the product. It is what it is and costs what it costs. As of right now, it is just not for me.Bob - Las Cruces, NM

I read many thoughts of enthusiasm from "people" here about where this is hopefully headed. As of the moment, they have covered 1/8952th of the earth's land, and 1/590th of the United States with scenery, and taken 17 months to do it. This is not exactly a dazzling statistic for expansion optimism. And especially at the prices they are charging ! And as a "person" this is why I "personally" cannot get too thrilled about this product. It's OK for what it is.Bob

"Don't get me wrong, I think Google Earth is a great utility, but it will never evolve into a full fledged flight simulator".Think so ?Now to blow your brains out, click on the Fed-Ex jet picture, and get ready for a big surprise.Then decide if Flight is the only longer term game in town !!!MS Flight may just have change their ways as it relates to a closed program after you see this.http://www.ge-flightsimulator.com/The history of computers does not support your opinion. When MS closed the door to O.S. developers, they opened the door to the very innovative people of the world. And they usually find a way to deliver.I'm not bashing here. I am simply saying the end is not in sight by a long shot no matter what MS ends up doing with their new venture. Flight did not fit my needs simply because I do not like to fly in Hawaii only, and really get my kicks in some more exciting places. The New York City area is one of them. GEFS fills that need in certain ways for me right now. But certainly not all of those needs. If I want to shoot landings, I'll come back to the free version of Flight. That's the nice thing about computers and free program options.When you can navigate FSX with ease, Flight takes a half hour tops to pretty much size up.Bob - LCNM

For those of you that still think this it a joke, you might want to check a few things out.1. First check out YouTube videos for GEFS. You might be surprised.2. It does have joystick support.3. See: http://support.googl...76993&ctx=topicHere you will see controls for thrust, rudder, ailerions, elevator, flaps, gear, brakes, and moreMicrosoft Flight is a program in very early development. It's features are extremely limited and for a target audience,Google Earth (GEFS) is a program in very early development. It's features are extremely limited and for a target audience,Each, has about the same potential to be a major product in the flying line-up at this point.Where Flight has better detailed planes, GE has better detailed scenary.Where Flight has good mouse support for simplicity, so does GEFS.Where Flight has better instrumention, GE has a whole world to offer.Where Flight has certain better features each with a price, GE is totally free.Where Flight is totally closed, GEFS has yet to take that position.But if the FS communtiy wants to move forward they need to support all the major game players.Given the state of both programs, it is my opinion they both need their own forum.In total right now, I do not see one or the other ahead in total offering.I do see GE with a whole lot more money to throw at it, given some enthusiasm and support.A negative attitude towards a free lunch, usually means the end of that free lunch.And in the end, we will eventually get to a whole world that is real. GEFS is way ahead on this one and there is little doubt that is the only reason they have done what they have done so far for FS enthusiasts while betting on the future. Right now Google's Android is kicking MIcrosoft's butt in the arena of the future (Cell phone and tablet systems).Bob - LCNM

I'm outta here, exactly like the last time you chimmed in and drove me away. In my blog your IP would have been blocked long ago.Bob

A380That was their clearly stated intent.You and I may not agree with it, but the program also fires up in that mode.Please, and with all due respect, know your subject before calling someone a troll.It seems as though this crowd has gotten so negative, they don't even want to hear of any exciting new thing. I am actually sorry I started this thread and I will keep these kinds of things to myself and my own self enjoyment in the future. Tom was exactly right in shutting this forum down. The message posters in general are out of control.Personally, I would shut it down for good until everyone gets an attitude change. This is not a friendly place any more and some heads need to roll.Bob - LCNM

I think every single one of you "know it alls" are going to go into total shock if you bother to go to YouTube and watch the videos of the GE flight simulator with full blown jet models and on-screen instrument panels just like FSX.I am now researching joystick support which I understand it also has but I have not found that yet.Clearly, it is coming out that Microsoft got way behind the 8 ball here and is playing catch up once again.Clearly this is why they called it Flight, changed the people they were aiming at, made it free, and made it mouse driven. The GE has a very sophisticated mouse support specifically aimed at FS.I really don't know how this got past so many fairly sophisticated FS people, including myself.They clearly intend to be game players and knock MS off with their Android system.I have a choice today to fly GE or Flight. I choose to spend my time in the reality of GE as of right now. Yes, there are some trade off's, but this thing is a serious game player. Download it and see for yourself. As of this moment and state of development, they are at a very minimum tied in the race for the mouse driven fan. Given that GE is totally free for the whole world, they have a serious uphill battle in my opinion.Disclaimer - This is not an anti-Flight thread on my part. That program has it's features and merits all it's own. My purpose is to inform the community that another serious game player of the same type exists. And with it's own set of similar and different merits. This really hit me as both a fluke and a surprise. I went over to install a program for a friend on his computer, and this 70 year old man with no interest in FS what-so-ever, was flying around in GE with a mouse when I arrived and Mr. FS Know-It-All (me) didn't have any knowledge of this free offering and especially it's power.Bob - LCNM

A380Don't knock it until you try it. I'm an avid flight sim guy just like you. I'm in shock, and the more I think about it, the more I am seeing exactly why MS did what they did. They have serious market share issues, and Google took the lead in this flying by mouse arena. Further, they've got the images on line !!!Now if Google improves just their FS module, MS is sucking you know what really bad.When I went over to a friend of mine's house and he was flying around in this thing, I was in total shock. This one got by me. And he has no interest in FS just like the average kid.I know, I know.... You FS guys are all experts and you are not liking to face this reality. But FS and GE are not simulators, and right now I'm saying GE has the lead simply because a kid with a mouse is going to like seeing the whole world. I know I do.And yes you can land in GE but it gets a bit blurry down low. Each has serious downsides and serious upsides. But to see the world in eye candy from a few hundred feet above and more, it blows Flight completely off the map (pardon the pun).Frankly, like FS, I can't leave it alone. Too much real stuff to go check out. I'm flying over baseball fields and public swimming pools I played on and in when I was 10 years old. It's totally fascinating and totally addictive. The tennis courts I played high school tennis on have not changed a bit in over 40 years in Blue Island, Illinois.I repeat, this is just not a simple top down view. You can totally control your angle of view down. It even has real weather layers you can turn on, and adjustable sun angle and time of day controls.Bob

There is a flight simulator built into the free product. That's because the function from an "eye candy" prospective is the same. But you have the whole world of tile proxy without even messing with it. And you have a grid if you want it just like in MS Flight if you want to use the mouse only. But you can just fly with your mouse alone and some key commands if you want.Look at the handwriting on the wall. See what resources Google has and does not have, and what MS has and does not have. And the flock of kids going to Android. It's not rocket science in the world of marketing.Everybody say's Flight is not a flight simulator. Neither is Google Earth. But they both let you fly around with a mouse !!!!!Bob - LC, NM

And don't knock it until you try it. I am in total shock. I had no idea !!!! It all comes from the ability to tilt the view as far as you want. Even to horizontal. And then just "fly".It's the same as flying with an outside view but real satellite mapping. I've been flying all over southern Portugal today where I lived for about a year at Sesimbra, Hawaii, and I just discovered a new 22 million dollar GM automotive battery plant I helped get running in 1973 at Fitzgerald, Georgia has been torn down, when I flew over it and all I saw was a brown field with a stained dead weed patch outline on it. Probably from battery acid of all those years.Then I flew down the Vegas strip, out to boulder dam to see the new bridge for the first time, and over a golf course community I lived in at Lecanto, Florida. I could even see golf carts and people on the driving range !!!! I was pixxed when I saw all the black fungle grunge on the driveway of my old house that has not been water blasted off as per the POA code.When you stop and hold Ctrl while rolling your scroll wheel, you can do a 360 and catch that place from every angle. On a lot I own here in Las Cruces I can see a 6 foot board laying on the building pad that I left there a couple of years ago as I fly over it. And it is as clear as a bell. This is seriously good !!!!Microsoft could have seen a serious problem with their offerings and put a band aid on it ASAP.Bob - Las Cruces, NM.

OK, admittedly I missed the boat on Google Earth until just this week. I rejected Google Earth some time back because I did not realize that Google Earth Plus changed to Google Earth in 2008, and the separate new product in effect was Google Earth Pro, not Plus. Google Earth Pro is mostly about selling demographic data.Now the free desktop version of Google Earth (not the free plug-in for your browser) is where all the goodies are. And there are lots of goodies. It is a seriously good program.Now, I was a beta tester of Flight, for about 1/2 hour after I got my CH Products Yoke up and working. That was it. It's a nice program, but simply not for me. So I did not want to waste my time on it beyond that 1/2 hour. I've not messed with the final release.So today, I fire up the desktop version on Google Earth, and punch in Unalakleet, Alaska. Woah ! This thing is seriously good. So I flip over to Nome. Woah Again ! I had better learn some hot keys, especially Ctrl + Center Mouse Scroll Wheel. Now I'm smokin'.So I head over to Honolulu, adjust my tilt angle, altitude, and sunlight angle a little bit and I'm flying all over the area with a couple of hot keys and my mouse. I'm not using their built in simulator, just my mouse. And I have a whole world of satellite imagery to play with and Google's 3-D buildings and street view to boot. And it is good, really good.Now with Google's Android out and taking a huge market share, and tablets & cell phone based products as the future, I have to ask if this is really Microsoft's immediate answer to that threat of "Flight" with the use of a mouse. With this established free stand alone version of Google Earth, it sure looks like it to me.For those that have not downloaded and learned the latest desktop version of Google Earth, (now 6.2), you are missing something special just as I was up until just this week. This is a very seriously good free program. And since they took the images when cars and trucks were actually on the highways, when you "fly" the angle changes make them appear to be moving.Microsoft gives you a just slightly better but very limited mouse driven free product for flying. Competitor Google gives you the free mouse driven experience of "flight", which is less but in it's own way very similar, but the entire world is in great and true detail.Is this really maybe the motives behind what is happening with the sudden change to a free download and a mouse driven thing called "Flight" ? If you want mainly eye candy, try Google Earth tilted, and then the arrow keys for a very nice......... Flight ! And you can fly self-made camera paths or record as a video.Bob - Las Cruces, NM.

Now that I have pretty much vented all my frustrations, I have accepted that I have to go back to FSX on a new overclocked machine, I'm OK with that. So shutting the Flight forum down, and kind of favoring the new Flight fan "boys" as we move on is of little concern to me. I don't see any immediate need for Flight as it is now so why should I care.Frankly, I am looking forward to a new "Ivy" bridge unlocked chip at it's release in April. And overclocking has become extremely simple since everyone has discovered the dollars in that too. Even Intel is one board with that and now sells a "Performance Tuning Protection Plan" for $29, offering a one-time chip replacement for free if you fry the one you have while overclocking it in the first year. It specifically covers out-of-spec. usage. Also places like Cyberpower are giving away the kitchen sink just to sell machines these days. About all these "freebees" are to certify the whole machine for overclocking since everyone is doing that anyway. For me, that is the immediate future. I've even been looking in the Avsim library in preparation of moving on. In fact, I intend to purchase the latest versions of the popular FSX add-ons, rather than live with what I've got. And I already have a lifetime membership with Justin for mesh.I think that is the state of where we are at for a period long enough to justify the new expense. I think Flight will be a start up toy only for quite some time. That's where I will spend my money instead of some pie-in-the-sky "points" based cloud aimed at the kiddie set.Bob - Las Cruces, NM.

MS did not mislead anyone. We mislead ourselves with expectations not in evidence. Now we are all mad about that and taking it out on MS. They see "the cloud" as the future in terms of actual use, easy upgrading, piracy elimination, tablet use, compatible with Windows 8 & beyond, and profit making potential. They wrote us off the day they closed Aces Studios in a decision to move on. Many of us, including myself, just don't want to face that reality. I'm trying to face it by hoping a highly overclocked Ivy Bridge will be the real answer for now, and until something else better comes along. We are lucky to still have FSX in a world of hardware that it may grow into having practical use on in the near future.And the reality of that, may bring about significant changes for Flight. Maybe just like Intel does, they will sell an "unlocked" version before it is all over.Bob

After watching the wonderful Discovery Channel program, Flying Wild Alaska, a couldn't wait to fire up at Unalakleet, and do my thing. I thought maybe I could out do Ariel, and actually hit the center of the runway. You can even download a third party airport enhancement for Unalakleet. That's not gonna happen in Flight, and as such it's a B.B. King. That's why in my opinion, this program will be about like a new restaurant in town. After the initial surge, reality will set in quickly.After Captain Sully put it down in the Hudson River, I took the GPS coordinates from USAToday and duplicated that flight including a return to LaGuardia, and a shot at Teterboro. It was fun to just clear that last bridge like he did so heroically. "The thrill is gone" !Bob

There is a difference as I used to make my own Coke. I bought (and custom wall mounted) a used refrigerated fountain machine with a carbonator and bought my Coke syrup and gas directly from the local Coke plant. It dispensed four different drinks. The main difference in Coke as sold today is in the quantity of syrup put in the carbonated water. Temperature is also important, because cold water gives up very little CO2 when poured. That's why dispensers have associated cooling coils as opposed to dispensing with ice. Also, those small 7 once bottles remain popular with some people because they receive the same 12 oz. size shot of syrup and that better approximates the Mexican mix (which is better). Coke syrup and/or CO2 interacts with copper and/or brass fittings and gives it a very rancid taste. These systems must therefore use plastic or S.S. fittings. There is even a warning tag on some dispenser units about this problem. I learned it the hard way.I rather go back to making Coke than going broke flying the new joke with my CH yoke.As the name says.... "Toys-R-Us"....Bob

Maybe they will sell a "lifetime" membership to put a cap on the process. That might essentially give the FS world an FS11 while taking in a ton of money right up front. I'd be there right away with my credit card just like I did with FSGenesis. And it might even head me off from taking the direction I am about to take with a new overclocked Ivy bridge machine, and a return to FSX. They've got 'til April 8th on that one but I am not holding my breath.I think people here, while opimistic, forget that it took many years for third party people to get to the level of sophistication that they are at now in FSX. Does anyone seriously think a bloated and slow to move corporate bureaucracy is going to not take even much longer. They usually barely beat the government at what they do. I may not live that long.Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot. They'll form some committees and focus groups and it will be much quicker. Bob

Here's the dichotomy...Microsoft has stated to it's invited insiders that it expected a poor reaction, and it has stated an intent to provide a game for those with lower hardware resources, and a mouse. That's a new group.Microsoft has a loyal more sophisticated customer base, who develop freeware for the good of the hobby, and who spend a lot of money on their's (MS) and other third party products..Both are money making pools of people. Why not support both in the production of Flight for beginners and FX11 for the existing base and others that grow into the genuine big boy. Face it, there will never be an MS big boy again without the incorportation of an open architechure, and third party people including freeware developers.Frankly, I am surprised at website providers who also depended on third party people for a good part of their income, and freeware developers for hit count, embracing this complete cut-off like they apparently have. I personally would be shuttling this off to a new Game forum area along with the rest of the lesser major categories, while keeping the complete simulators in the Flight Simulation area.... and together. Sometimes it's time to move on when slapped in the face ! Let the games earn the right to get into the main stream Flight Simulator area if that's what the developers want to make. Bob

I'm in an FSX state of mind reset again. The unlocked Ivy Bridge Core i7-3770K is scheduled now for April 8th release at $352. It is uncertain as to where it will finally overclock out at, but under any scenario it looks good. I've decided on that direction. And I think I will just buy the latest versions of the main scenery and traffic add-ons. I can alway have Flight on there too when I want to go and play a kiddy game, which is never !Bob

I have to admit that if Flight gives me what it's got, plus....1. Multiple monitor support.2. Slew (something I use a lot).3. Decent mesh.4. Cars.(moving road traffic)5. Most of the world but especially California, Nevada, Alaska, Florida, Illinois, New Mexico, and New York.6. Some decent small airplanes and a jet or two.7. Third party navigation including a tracked autopilot module.8. U.S. Roads.9. No required game restrictions (achieving stupid game goals first).10. ATC. and full radio support.11. Autopilot and full ILS support.12. GPS.13. Electronic airport directional movement help.14. Other air traffic.I'd be happy.And surprisingly I would probably fork out a couple of hundred dollars plus for that if the frame rates were decent and the blurries at a minimum. Do I think that will happen before a better alternative comes along with an open architecture.No !Bob - Las Cruces, NM

I'm leaning that way myself. I went over to the Flight Facebook page and this place is like an MS heaven compared to the drubbing going on over their. If they are not getting, or care not to get, some kind of a message from that, it is never going to happen period, They clearly do not need our input to get the drift.Bob