Maybe Microsoft Has It Right

[Guest Phantoms]

What has led you to the conclusion that one "MUST be online" to play? All the blog posts (and other sources) have indicated that off-line, solo use will be possible, so I don't forsee the situation you envision occurring at all.What may be required is that after X number of times launched for solo, off-line pay, one might be required to have internet access for re-validation of one's installation.In any event, one would want to "login" periodically if only to check for any recent updates or bug fixes to the program...

I can tell you that the GTA IV installation using Games For Windows Live requires you to be online and sign in just to play and have the ability to save your game. If you are not online and signed in on Games For Windows, you can not save any progress you make in the game. This is a fact. I don't see a FS that's been designed for Games For Windows being any different. They want to know everytime you use the product, how you use it, etc.I'm not against the ability to download a product instead of purchasing it on DVD, I'm against having to report in any time I want to use that product with my personal user information so they can track everything I do to figure out new ways to sell me things or sell my activities information.

[n4gix 4,947]

I don't see a FS that's been designed for Games For Windows being any different.

Well, to be perfectly frank, I tend to accept what Paul Lange and other members of the "new team" have stated more than I will anyone's speculation... :(

[FalconAF 213]

I have to agree with Bill. From what I have read and researched, there is no indication that any future FS will be ONLY online capable. The end user will be able to use the program for offline sessions if they choose.And although I can understand a certain level of "paranoia" about someone or some company being able to "track" your usage of it, that "tracking" capability has been going on with home computers for years already. If you use the Internet and have things like Google or Yahoo toolbars activated in your browser, you are being tracked. Yes...if you don't install these things (or stop them from being activated...which implies you KNOW how to do that), then you can prevent it. But how many of the "core users of FS" that people keep referring to here really DO know how to do that? Or even bother to do that? Heck, day after day here we see posts from FS users asking things like, "Where is my FSX.CFG file located?" Odds are, if they can't figure that out themselves, they don't have the background knowledge to understand or prevent "tracking" that is taking place when they are using the Internet now.Am I concerned about some company "tracking" my use of their software? Maybe...maybe not. Depends on what they are using the information for. Marketing purposes? That's the LEAST of my worries. Why? I'm being "marketed" on a daily basis already! Have been for years now. It's not "new" just because I use the Internet. And it won't be new if a software company I buy a program from does it. My credit card company knows exactly how I use my card for purchases...what I buy, how much I spend, when, where...it's not new at all. They could probably determine how often and how much I drive my car from the dates and times of my gas purchases for it. With a little math (MPG vs amount of gas I buy and how often) it wouldn't be hard to do. It doesn't "worry" me...unless I really have something to hide. Like, maybe I told my auto insurance company I only drive 8000 miles a year to get a lower premium. But my gas purchases indicate I'm driving 24,000 miles a year instead. If my insurance company was "in cahoots" with my credit card company, and found out I lied, well, that may be a different story. But the fact they found out may not really be the issue. I'm the one who lied about it in the first place. My cable TV company knows exactly what channels I watch and when and what shows I prefer. I have no doubt the monthly emails I get from them are "targeted" with the type of Pay Per View offers based on my viewing trends. So what? I still have the choice to make those PPV purchases or not.There seems to be a "Big Brother Will Be Watching" paranoia about FS going "online" if it does. That's crazy. And it certainly won't be anything "new". Almost everybody has been being watched for years now if they use a computer and the Internet. And let's face it. IF you are an FS user, you most probably DO and HAVE been using the Internet for years already. Not much is going to change.I agree with Bill. Save your stress levels. Quit predicting Doom and Gloom, and let's see just what DOES happen with the next generation of FS. If you don't like the direction it takes, then you don't HAVE to purchase it. You can do the same thing that many non-users of FSX are doing now. Just say, "Screw THAT!", and keep FS9 on your computer. Your choice. But think about that for a minute also. If FSX is available NOW, but many users don't use it for WHATEVER reason they choose ("It sucks!" "It doesn't run right on my computer!" "It won't run on my 4-year old computer, so MS sucks too!", ad nausium), and they CHOOSE to still use FS9 instead....Aren't they using a "dumbed down" version of Flight Simulator NOW by using FS9 instead of FSX? A future "dumb downed version of FS is coming" is another "complaint" of what the next version of FS may be, according to some of these posts here. Seems to me that if the so-called "core user base" of FS is WILLING to use FS9 instead of FSX, then that portion of the "core user base" has made the decision to stay "dumbed down" themselves. I wonder how the corporate "bean counters" interpret THAT kind of information. And how it might affect their future plans.Rick

[barryward12345 0]

It seems to me that perhaps this possible new direction may be a very good thing for established developers - as it will open up their market to many more buyers.BUT - this hobby has a foundation of small-time amateur developers - who do their very first paintjob, or a/c or panel and take great pride in it. Then they may go on to bigger and greater things. BUT - are those people going to be able to get a foot onto the ladder in the future?? And what will be the future of the entire freeware concept - without which, even the best known addon developers would be unheard of today.The times they certainly are a-changing. But what will be, will be. Barry

[Guest ArtieLange]

I can tell you that the GTA IV installation using Games For Windows Live requires you to be online and sign in just to play and have the ability to save your game. If you are not online and signed in on Games For Windows, you can not save any progress you make in the game. This is a fact.

Have you tried the xliveless patch ?

[Guest Phantoms]

Have you tried the xliveless patch ?

From what I've read of it, it's a online multiplayer patch designed for servers to allow cheat controls. I haven't read anything about it allowing single player to work without GFWL, only the ability to load other's saved files.

[Geofa 108]

Rob,I agrre with some of both your and Geoffa's points. But I just can't agree with all of them. For instance, to quote some of the things in the above:"...but some of them are more obsessed with counting beans than thinking about what they want to achieve, to the poiint where, as Geofa says, the sight of the original goal is lost."I'll give 3 more examples of "bean counting" that I see almost daily that tick me off.There was a nice steak restaurant that I would visit once a month. Steaks excellent, baked potatoes the size of small footballs, decent salads-a little pricey but seemed worth it. Went there for many years. Two years ago went there and noticed the price was suddenly raised $5 for all entries (a new menu-surprise!). Ok I thought-a little more pricey but I can put up with it. Stated my order for salad and was told now the salads were an extra charge. The meal came out-and you guessed it-the potato was now mini sized. I said to my wife-some bean counter obviously decided they could maximize more profits by taking these shortcuts , the product be @#@#med, and the consumer will not notice. Well a large number of folks must have noticed -cause it (and it was a national chain) was out of business within the year-and it had been in business for years. I can just visualize the corporate meeting-spreadsheets showing that raising prices, charging extra for salads, reduce the size of the potatoes would save the bottom line and increase profits. A quality product being a self sustaining entity didn't enter the equation.Second one was a national Asian restaurant chain my wife and I would visit 3 times a month. Loved the hot and sour soup and a particular dish which always came with shredded ginger.After many years of going there-the hot and sour soup suddenly had half the stuff in it-and the ginger was suddenly missing. I asked the server what happened-new menu she said. Translation-the corporate bean counter said we can put half the stuff in the soup and leave the ginger off the entrees and profits will be maximized and the consumer will not notice. I have not been back..I at least noticed.Third. My daughter works at a major steak house national chain to put her self thru college as a waitress. When she started they were all issued company red shirts to wear-looked good, professional, and worked. A few weeks ago a decision was made to change to white, and all employees were required to buy their own white shirts. No problem except working in a steak house-they are all splattered with meat juice within 1 hour of work-looking slovenly and making my daughter have to wash and bleach her work shirt every day (how is that for green environment?). Ticked off employees at the increased expense and workload to do a professional job, and slobby looks for the public doesn't seem brilliant to me-but the bean counters saved a little cost there by now making the employees who are making $2.00 hour plus tips take the slack in buying their own shirts. They haven't touched the food yet which is still high quality but how soon till that goes next?So my feeling is the next flight sim will be determined by the bean counters, not by people who are enthusiastic and really care about flight simming. Of course corporate profits have always been taken into account-but I think a little vision and caring used to also take place. I think some artistic license was given as there was actually some care and pride about the product-not just the profits.People who are enthusiastic and care about flight simming may be working on the next product-but the vision and goals will not be given by those, but by those that see no further than a spreadsheet, maximizing profits, and giving as little to the public as they can to maximize such profits. So personally, I am not all that positive as to the future of fs-or my steak in the near future.P.S. I have nothing but respect for accountants-one of my flying partners is one. For me "bean counters" means something else.My Blog: http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[ray hughes 165]

Re Geofa last commentYes I concur - I can hear the munchkins chanting now " maximise profit! maximise profit! maximise profit !!!" - I suffer this philosophy at my work and it shows. We have laid off long term employees who know the job inside out because we can get cheaper labor - and so the game goes. We are being Nickle and Dimed to death people.Here's a game. Slight Fimulator. Big Manual of instructions and no online copy protection because we trust you - we are all a community - group hugs.Later - Lets not give them a colour manual. Save us money - competition is tough - and wait, sales are down - piracy? Later Still - Lets not give them a manual at all. And lets make it so the LEGITIMATE User has to register online. This will stop those PiratesMake the user waste paper printing out the thing. Saves us money so we can more competitive and wipe the competition off the floor.And Later still - Lets give them a crappy little 10 page booklet which contains advertising and not much else.And then this - I know, Lets omit any form of manual and rely on the free user groups to support the product so that way we can disband the Support team and save money.A Future that awaits - Wait, there is more money to be made here. Lets force the user to download the whole software package, make it so that it is hardware key linked to just the computer hardware that exists at the time of the initialization and restrict usage to Internet users only by making it really only a multiplayer experience. So the user is paying the ISP for download time, the program, any and all reisntallations for whatever reason and the frustration and hassle of re-installation online confirmations when you upgrade your equipment because there is a new processor/motherboard/hard drive you want. And not to mention the larger monthly allowance you have had to pay your ISP for the volume of data you need on a monthly basis.(Share holders rub hands gleefully)My apologies if I have offended anyone......Ray

[mabe54 17]

Behind the bean counters are the managers and CO's that demand more profits at whatever cause. And behind them the board of directors. The end of the line are shareholders who really do not know or care about anything they invest in except return investment. And nowadays, we might even be them. That model has been in place for more that 2 centuries but now in its present unrestrained form is alive and is killing all the good old fun. Quality and good services are always its first victims. Once these two are exosted the main core of the business is next and slowly is eroded away too. Games, food, soda pops, airfares, hotels, construction, cars, trucks, etc you named it, they all are falling under the same scheme of things. On top, the odds are in their favor. We, the customer when surprised and confronted with this new developments, take it. We might never come back but we first took it. In FS, freeware had more relevance than payware and I think that they should have never been at odds with each other. Time again came to pass once more.Cheers,MAB

[barryward12345 0]

Geofawas out of business within the year-and it had been in business for yearsWell, in these cases, we really don't know what the situation was. This business may have in fact been just breaking even or even losing a little every year for years.If I (or you - I am sure :( ) had a million dollars invested in some enterprise that was paying us a nett profit of 1 or 2% or less maybe, we would want more - and would either attempt to clean the business up or move the investment elsewhere. This is not to say that some very good businesses have not been destroyed by stupid, greedy management. Returning to the case in point - MS and FS. I have no idea why MS have chosen to do what they have done. But it is their money ( the shareholders) and they can do with it whatever they wish - same as you and I can. You know where any suggestion otherwise leads to :( Barry

[Geofa 108]

Geofawas out of business within the year-and it had been in business for yearsWell, in these cases, we really don't know what the situation was. This business may have in fact been just breaking even or even losing a little every year for years.If I (or you - I am sure :( ) had a million dollars invested in some enterprise that was paying us a nett profit of 1 or 2% or less maybe, we would want more - and would either attempt to clean the business up or move the investment elsewhere. This is not to say that some very good businesses have not been destroyed by stupid, greedy management. Returning to the case in point - MS and FS. I have no idea why MS have chosen to do what they have done. But it is their money ( the shareholders) and they can do with it whatever they wish - same as you and I can. You know where any suggestion otherwise leads to :( Barry

Well I am also a shareholder. I just remember a time when companies were driven by ideas, and the desire to create good products-which invariably brought a good return to both the company and its shareholders.

[mgh 89]

Well I am also a shareholder. I just remember a time when companies were driven by ideas, and the desire to create good products-which invariably brought a good return to both the company and its shareholders.

Tou speak of the past. If those companies made good returns for themselves and their shareholders why haven't they survived?

[Geofa 108]

Tou speak of the past. If those companies made good returns for themselves and their shareholders why haven't they survived?

In my opinion the ones that have not survived and will continue the downward spiral are the ones that follow the beancounter mentality.I gave a couple examples above.

[Charlie Chew 0]

I just finished scanning the Tribune, my local daily newspaper, and read that the Tribune will no longer be sponsoring two long-running local high school basketball tournaments. They boys' Tribune Tournament, which the newspaper has been sponsoring for 55 years, is the oldest high school basketball tournament in the province. The decision was not made by the newspaper's staff, but by its parent company, Sun Media.Two thoughts:1) Another unfortunate example of a company cutting costs by axing that extra-special *something* that set the company apart from the competition in the first place. I feel like I just got served one of Geofa's puny baked potatoes.2) The headline of the story: 'It's business as usual' for Tribune tournamentsRecession forces newspaper chain to end financial sponsorship of tournaments in Niagara The "business as usual" bit brings to mind Microsoft's line about still being committed to "flying games."

[PhilTaylor 45]

Well, now at least we have a face to associate with the idiot that probably destroyed our beloved Simulator.

no, it wasnt Shane Kim that made the call. it was Phil Spencer. he should be placed in Wikipedia as the "exec who shut down FS".