I read and enjoyed your entire post, I agree with it for the most part. The problem I see is huge downloads of games. Take a typical DVD-based PC game, usually about 8-10 GB's of data compressed on the disc. Thats a hefty download for the times. Maybe a few years it wont be so bad. And the worst thing about online software is DRM.... it's only going to get worse.... The honest users always get hurt the most by DRM..... and that's bass ackwards!

DRM can be just as bad if not worse with DVD's ( just google Bioshock DRM and read the horror stories, or google Starforce ), anybody remember Sony's rootkit for CD's ? There is one service that is awesome, Steam.I love the fact that I don't need a dvd in my drive to play the game, and the game is not tied to my computer, it's tied to my account. When I build a new computer all I do is reinstall Steam and go to my games and redownload them, nothing more. The DRM with DVD's is much worse. First I have to find my DVD's, then reinstall, oops, the code is on the manual and I can't find that. Look, here is a disk I forgot to put away and now it's scratched and won't install, well there are two games that I can't play anymore. Those things are not a problem with steam, plus the games can be constantly updated. Nothing is worse than an updated/new computer that forces me to call India just to reinstall programs that I have the physical DVD for.DRM sucks, but it's not going away, and from my many years of PC gaming I can say Steam is by far the least painful method.

Robert, you are so dead on right it just ain't funny. People... listen. This man is right on target. Thats all I can say... :( Regards,Jim Rhoads

I also agree with Rob and Jim. I think it will be a MS virtual earth engined simplistic sim with some really good graphics so one can fly over their house, and Mt. Everest and go ooh and ahh and then lose interest. Some parts of it will be graphically impressive, but it will not have the staying power or complexity we presently have.I really hope I am completely wrong.

Edited: I don't feel like getting yelled at. Well said Rob.

Some other users in this thread need to realize that they are already using an Online system for much of their FS enjoyment and it is only going to grow.

Hi Jim, (at Hi-Fi)I don't think anyone would argue that downloadable software is desirable if it is either relatively small in size (example: Live for Speed), or represents an update or currently needed data (example: FSX weather or Hockey/football games teams or schedules), or NEEDS to be played online for any tangible enjoyment to be gained. But there is a vast catalogue of decent application by developers with very large resources (eg: FSX) which really doesn't require online status, and in terms of practicality is always going to be better in DVD form - or CDs in the past, because of the huge file sizes needed, unless or until broadband is so effortlessly quick globally that it doesn't represent any problem at all. I doubt whether that will be the case even in five years time. A significant number of global flightsim customers are still on either dial up or slow adsl connections.But worse than this is the concept of COMPULSORY online status just in order to run and enjoy software, and this is what I suspect is going to be the default requirement for a large number of so-called state of the art "games". Even though multiplayer, downloading weather, accessing charts on the fly etc etc is desirable for some of the time, that is entirely different from HAVING TO BE connected at all times just to start and use an application.Behind this apparently "practical" step is something much more sinister: it is in some cases just gratuitous control freakery. I doubt whether some major developers could even explain the logic of it. In the worst cases it is simply keeping tabs on users. My answer would be: "go away and leave me alone to enjoy what I have". Not every game or piece of software needs or requires constant internet connection to use, and indeed my greatest pleasures with FSX and FS9 before it were discovering and learning things while gloriously alone and unfettered.Sure, I can see that some games by their nature need to be downloaded, updated and "played" on line, but flight simulator is not one of them, unless you CHOOSE to do so, which is fine. It is choice that is the key.It is not the online nature of downloading large pieces of data, or even "playing" online that worries me. It is the clear trend that is emerging that you MUST be online that is worrying.Rob Young

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/kim/ :(http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/02/microsof...-game-controls/http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsofts-shane-kim :(

I think that we fail to miss a basic psychological element to what drives consumers. I have always believed that despite the inconvenience, the consumer likes to have something in their hands to show for when they have made a purchase. This debate has come up in other areas of technology before. Will e-books be the end of print books? Will online publications be the end of the news paper. Will movie downloads be the end of blu ray and DVD. I suppose you could site two examples that have really changed consumers spending patterns, the MP3 has made a large dent in the CD sales and the adult magazine has all but disappeared from the corner store in favor of online viewing. In the end I think people want to hold something in their hands, I know I do. I enjoy making the trip down to the store picking up the item and bring it home. To me it is that simple, but trends and consumer habits do change so we will have to watch and see.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/kim/ :(http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/02/microsof...-game-controls/http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsofts-shane-kim :(

Well, now at least we have a face to associate with the idiot that probably destroyed our beloved Simulator. Also, we can have a visual of their vision for the future. And of course again, they missed the mark. Now way in heck it will ever work for FS. I am mooning Live to their vision.Bean counters, you can always count on them to ruin things for the rest of us. They do not have a life, we should join them, right??? WRONG!!! My wallet is my vote and it says NO LIVE!!!Cheers,MAB :( B)

A significant number of global flightsim customers are still on either dial up or slow adsl connections.

Absolutely! This is the worrying thing about the recent "online" trend in entertainment software. I live on the edge of town so I can only get a 2MB ADSL connection because I live far from the exchange. My ISP (like nearly all UK ISPs) has a fair usage policy which limits me to 16GB data per month before they throttle my connection during peak hours. I also work at sea, so when my ship is at sea I have no net connection on my laptop, so any software that requires a net connection to run is a no-no for me. When I'm in port (in the UK at least) I can get a half decent net connection via a USB modem connecting via the mobile phone network, but that can also be slow (and expensive -

Well, now at least we have a face to associate with the idiot that probably destroyed our beloved Simulator. Also, we can have a visual of their vision for the future. And of course again, they missed the mark. Now way in heck it will ever work for FS. I am mooning Live to their vision.Bean counters, you can always count on them to ruin things for the rest of us. They do not have a life, we should join them, right??? WRONG!!! My wallet is my vote and it says NO LIVE!!!Cheers,MAB :( :(

I don't know if he pulled the plug, but from reading his PR statements (also much earlier statements) it seems to be pretty clear that they aim towards the mass market and that they have no interest in PC gamer and simulation enthusiasts. Of course they want our money but forget their products. Probably only multi platform products of average quality.BTW, the " :( " was meant towards PC Games and us and not towards Mr. Kim. Just to avoid misunderstandings.

Absolutely! This is the worrying thing about the recent "online" trend in entertainment software. I live on the edge of town so I can only get a 2MB ADSL connection because I live far from the exchange. My ISP (like nearly all UK ISPs) has a fair usage policy which limits me to 16GB data per month before they throttle my connection during peak hours. I also work at sea, so when my ship is at sea I have no net connection on my laptop, so any software that requires a net connection to run is a no-no for me. When I'm in port (in the UK at least) I can get a half decent net connection via a USB modem connecting via the mobile phone network, but that can also be slow (and expensive -

I find the general cynical attitude a little astonishing.The trend is absolutely a positive one

Where can one find a boxed copy of Slight Fimulator? Would love to see how it compares to the existing product :( Maybe the Live concept will allow us to go online for an annual fee and fly using MS virtual Earth? That way no ton of software to download, maybe only the planes??? We will each have our own hangars, home base, etc etcAnd of course it would be easier to keep up to date with NAV info etcIs this the same as the cloud concept?Bill

I think that we fail to miss a basic psychological element to what drives consumers. I have always believed that despite the inconvenience, the consumer likes to have something in their hands to show for when they have made a purchase.

Beyond that...people want a simple DVD to put in their drive, when they need to reinstall. No hassles with lost registration numbers, license keys, passwords, etc. That is almost extinct these days.

DVD's ought to be an option

to SeaDog,'Can anyone figure out how those uncountable variations can all be implemented and co-exist without bringing to a grinding halt the entire apparatus?' Yep. FlitSimBox3 (PERSONALIZED, IT is YOU-YOU are IT). Preloaded. Online to validate. Monthly subscription. 'Expandable' by buying / downloading of 'Mission' type software. Mucho $$$. Nothing new, except for SicroFoft's 'Sim' (if you can call it that). That's what they MAY be 'aiming' at, for the future 'Simulator' (trains? vehicles? bulldozers?). We shall see.