Maybe Microsoft Has It Right

[Tim_Capps 474]

FSX is giving me the best flight sim experience I have ever had. Personally, I don't think it is a bad thing to finally have a non-moving target for developers. It isn't like two years from now we'll all have computers that make today's FSX look like wire-frame graphics. FS9 will get starved as the newest and coolest stuff comes out for FSX.

[WarpD 824]

Unfortunately, only the ubiquitous "other places" is the source, and even those doors are in the process of being shut. :( So there's really nothing more that can be said... :(

What little information I have doesn't give me a positive view for the next version of FS. If what I know comes to pass as reality... it will only vaguely resemble Flight Simulator. In fact, if what I know comes to pass, I don't think it'll be called Flight Simulator at all.

[Geofa 108]

What little information I have doesn't give me a positive view for the next version of FS. If what I know comes to pass as reality... it will only vaguely resemble Flight Simulator. In fact, if what I know comes to pass, I don't think it'll be called Flight Simulator at all.

Dittto..

[Guest Alphahawk3]

REI is a shell of it's former self, they were a great store ( not stores ) back when it was just one location on Pike ( or was it Pine ? ) on Capitol Hill. They make money because their prices are way to high, if you are lucky the dividend will make the price about the same as any other store. This really proves the point about something going big and getting ruined, once REI started expanding beyond one store they went down the toilet. I miss that old store with the smell of boot wax and all those staples smashed into the wood floor, and the great deals to be found on the basement floor. Look at Eddie Bower, a Northwest institution ruined by the bean counters and east coasters that took it from a place to get quality outdoor gear to some twisted version of the gap.

I have no clue about Eddie Bauer and I have only shopped at REI for 4 years now in TN...but I don't see how any store can be ruined when no matter what you purchase you can return and get a full refund no matter the condition. I think if you will check on it REI was started in Seattle, Washington and not on Capital Hill. I do realize this is straying from FSX but I have taken stuff back to REI after having it a year and no one has ever questioned me about anything. I have even seen people bring back 3 year old shoes and clothes and ask for a refund and receive it. When I inquired about people who abuse this I was told that only a few do as most who buy there keep their purchases and are loyal customers so REI never refuses a return or refund. They are continually voted by Forbes and other publications one of the top companies to work for in the US. Yes one has to spend some money to shop at REI but if you search around any particular item will be similarly priced elsewhere. Plus in my opinion they do sell top quality stuff. Take a Tilley hat. It is around 75$ anywhere you buy one...but buy one from anywhere but REI...wear it...get it stained with perspiration and try to get a store to give you a refund....it ain't gonna happen. I don't care about their dividend. I like quality stuff for the outdoors and REI serves that purpose. Now this straying will bring me more back in line with this thread. I remember when the software store named Babbage's would let you return software even if opened. I suppose that piracy was a problem with that but for me working out of the country I was able to buy games...try them out and return the ones that I found were not up to all the hype that caused me to buy it in the first place. Babbage's is gone...merged with others and became GameStop...and there are very few stores or companies left that as one post said "get it right". One size does not fit all. Many will not be happy with what is to come...if anything...of a new flight sim. Then again many might be very pleased in whatever fashion it shows up in. As I said before only time will tell. Oh and for those who might want to know if I paid 75$ for a Tilley hat..yes I did. I never wore a hat in my life....hated the things. Working 21 years in Saudi Arabia taught me to start wearing one after a bout with skin cancer. Why the Tilley? As I said one size does not fit all. Tilley is the only hat I could find that is still made in actual sizes and not "one size fits most". That is also why the sliders are on FSX...'one size does not fit all". Regards

[barryward12345 0]

This makes sense - as to why MS have done what they have doneBarry

[dmaher 0]

Putting aside the hopes and needs of the FS community for a moment

[Geofa 108]

Putting aside the hopes and needs of the FS community for a moment

[Guest ArtieLange]

I have no clue about Eddie Bauer and I have only shopped at REI for 4 years now in TN...but I don't see how any store can be ruined when no matter what you purchase you can return and get a full refund no matter the condition. I think if you will check on it REI was started in Seattle, Washington and not on Capital Hill. Regards

Capitol Hill is a part of Seattle, where there used to be the one and only REI from 1962 until some time in the 90's ( was it on Pike or Pine ? sorry, inside joke for those who live here ). I guess REI isn't bad, but it's just not what it used to be, once they closed the Captiol hill location and moved to the new store it was all downhill IMHO.Nordstrom has a similar return policy ( and so did Eddie Bauer ).

[dmaher 0]

What happens though-is when the product does not match the quality of the past the loyal user base goes elsewhere. The "new audience" tries it for 5 minutes like they always have, and then don't come back as they always have . Profits may even go up in the short term-then they start dropping hugely. When the profits go down, the top brass decides that product isn't viable anymore and discontinues it.

I agree a new direction would alienate the existing audience

[robert young 2,897]

Now what happens is what I have seen happen in my field. The top brass look at the situation and say there must be a way to increase profits even more-and the key to doing that is by getting a new audience. So they change the product-make it more accessible to the general public. That way it would seem profits can be maximized even more.So they dumb the product down, and make something that appeals to a more general level. Seems like a good strategy-make it appeal to a wider audience, get a bigger user base, and even more profits.What happens though-is when the product does not match the quality of the past the loyal user base goes elsewhere. The "new audience" tries it for 5 minutes like they always have, and then don't come back as they always have . Profits may even go up in the short term-then they start dropping hugely. When the profits go down, the top brass decides that product isn't viable anymore and discontinues it.At least my experience is if someone makes something based on high quality and ideals-success comes including profits. If someone makes something based on hoping to maximize profits, they never come.

Just about sums it up nicely.Rob Young

[mgh 89]

I wonder what these anecdotes about restaurants, savnavs and clothing shops etc have to do with this debate?Why should anyone think that Microsoft shouldn't try to maximise its income. After all, that's what every company and individual tries to do isn't it? It's rational of Microsoft to change its strategy to achieve that. Products come and go regularly in all types of business so why should flight simulator be any different? A flight simulation enthusiast will spend about $40 every four years to buy the new release of flight simulator - that's $10 a year. The cheapest subscription to World of Warcraft is $12.99 a month for a 6-month plan - thats $78 in total. Also, the enthusiasts aren't Microsoft's target market - there simply aren't enough of us. Incidentally, I speculate that one of the reasons for stopping development of FSNext could be that someone realised that it was becoming too focussed on that narrow market. After all, the enthusiast would have bought it regrdless of what additions it had: the first-time, new, buyer wouldn't know what they were. In other words, the additional development costs weren't justified by the additional income. Microsoft has no obligation to flight simulation enthusiasts or 3rd party developers. We don't have any right to expect Microsoft to continue providing a revised version every 4 years or so ad infinitum. We still have FS9 and FSX. Remember. We've lost nothing - we can't lose what we never had!

[FalconAF 213]

I have to agree with mgh. I think the so-called "core user group" of FS referred to in these posts is the real reason for the demise of FS11. And a marketing strategy change by MS.The MS Flight Simulator product as produced now is just too darned complicated for the "average" home computer user to use. Unless you have darn near the equivalent of an IT degree, the combination of having to update video drivers for a plethora of different video cards, maintaining various files on your computer (some related and some NOT directly relatated to FS), and doing USEFULL and regular system maintenance on your PC (defrags, etc) is just too much for an non "enthusiast" to keep up with. Many of us here DO have the knowledge and dedication (determination?) to keep doing that. But my guess is that a majority...a BIG majority...of the total FS user community DOESN'T. We see it every day in the forums...questions posed about how to make FSX (and even FS9 yet) run "right" on a home computer. A "dumbed down" version of FS that runs on a "box" that doesn't require continual "tweaking" by the end user will most likely increase revenues for a next version of an MS flight simulator. It would almost certainly increase the size of any "user base" compared to the current user base of FS. Whether it can really be called a "simulator" vs a "game" will remain to be seen.In any case, I'm not going to worry about it all. I may be using FSX six years from now if I still like it. I would assume as hardware capabilities increase in the next several years, I will eventually end up building a computer that could run "everything" I could throw at it in FSX. Just like the way the FS9 users say they can do that with FS9 now (and a reason some of them say they won't switch to FSX now).Nascar Racing 2003 Season was last produced in 2003. It's still going strong in the sim racing community...and it's over 6 years old now. It's still one of the best, if not THE best, Nascar sims around. There have been newer racing sims released since then that incorporate Nascar mods for them (rFactor being a major one), but many people, including me, still prefer using 2003 Season with all the community produced "upgrades" to it over the years. Seems to me as computer hardware capabilities increase over the next few years, there will still be a market for FSX addons...there is still a market for FS9 addons, and FS9 is almost 6 years old now. Will the "core user base" of FS9 and FSX disappear just because MS may take FS to a different platform or format? Good question. That depends on if the "hard core PC user base enthusiasts" here all jump ship to the new platform or format. No doubt the "FS Community" as we know it now will probably shrink. Those who aren't satisfied with the way FSX runs now, or lack the knowledge to make it "work right" on their computers, or don't want to upgrade their older computers for FSX, will probably jump ship. A "dumbed down" version of FS on an alternate platform is probably what they need. Me? I don't ever see me owning an XYZ-Box (or any other type of "console" gaming platform) anyhow, so if a commercial addon developer here is still developing FSX addons 3 years from now, and FSX is one of the only "kids on the block" as far as PC Flight SIMULATORS are concerned, you'll still see me buying the addons. Heck...I'm gonna need SOMETHING to stress my new 32-core computer system with 12 Terabytes of storage space 4 years from now. :( Rick

[dmaher 0]

How big is the dumbed down flight sim market anyway?How many products are succeeding in this space?I assume they

[mabe54 17]

This makes sense - as to why MS have done what they have doneBarry

One thing thinks the rider and another the burro he is riding on. MS is just going to find out the hard way the when you start mixing fruits crazily you do not end up necessarily with a fruit juice but a surprising diarrhea. Nobody can't stop them now. They are intoxicated with their own delusions. The only thing we can do is wait it out and hope they will soon recover. Doubt it.Cheers,MAB

[Geofa 108]

"I wonder what these anecdotes about restaurants, savnavs and clothing shops etc have to do with this debate?"You must have not read the whole thread-the anecdotes had to do with what a "bean counter" represents to many , and how that mentality often produces negative results."Why should anyone think that Microsoft shouldn't try to maximise its income. After all, that's what every company and individual tries to do isn't it? It's rational of Microsoft to change its strategy to achieve that. Products come and go regularly in all types of business so why should flight simulator be any different?"I am all for Microsoft maxing its income. In my experience the tact they appear to be taking will do exactly the opposite. I've seen it happen over and over. "A flight simulation enthusiast will spend about $40 every four years to buy the new release of flight simulator - that's $10 a year. The cheapest subscription to World of Warcraft is $12.99 a month for a 6-month plan - thats $78 in total."That is assuming that people will want to subscribe to this new manisfestation. They probably will short term-I doubt it long term. I don't believe we hit a 4 year cycle in flight sim yet-but the present one had already been padded with the release of acceleration and the now cancelled release of train simulator. The prior versions in two year cycles were padded with combat sim releases. "Also, the enthusiasts aren't Microsoft's target market - there simply aren't enough of us. "No disagreement here. However, it is a loyal market that has been bringing in consistent income for many years. The rest of the income was padded with users that bought, used briefly, and then shelved. Now the opposite will occur-the 5 minutes users will use it for 5 minutes minimizing the subscription, but the loyal user base will be gone. Once you lose that market, it is very difficult to get it back. " We still have FS9 and FSX. Remember. We've lost nothing - we can't lose what we never had!"I had Pro Pilot in 1999 too-now you can't even get the video card you need to run it anymore. I expect to be around simming for 30 more years or so. I also expect at some point in that time I will lose my medical and be unable to fly for real anymore. I would like to think there will be a sim around that can somewhat duplicate the experience, maybe even a little better than what we have now.