It's a Sad Day When it gets like this .. Orbx is closed

[Mike_CFII_MEL 825]

Hi,Thanks, not the answer I was looking for. Well, hopefully my kid will forget about it by tomorrow.Thanks

The Batman image found years ago on the net somewhere but only in that size, as far as copyright goes, back in the day when approached DC did not even bother emailing me back in regards to my question to that extent.

[CFIJose 5,485]

[Guest Nick_N]

Publicity ploy or not, it got everyone's attention and it might even help create more awareness.I don't care that Orbx closed for the day. All I care about is that developers continue to provide great software that I am willing to buy and enjoy.Nick N,I think you are extremely respectable and I really appreciate what you have done. As a developer, I only want the best for and wish you much success. I hope that you can embrace win 7 and Orbx. I have no idea what Orbx has done to you personally, but you are to good of a developer and contributor to give the impression that you don't approve of a great scenery developer.I always respect your opinion but I'm befuddled by what I'm reading.

Public ploy or not? Do you think what they did in attention getting was helpful? If so then perhaps you have already made up your mind so the rest about questioning my reasoning is sort of moot, isn

[Geofa 108]

[N400QW 205]

I already talked to a major fs developer in Oshkosh who is doing exactly that. Is this really what flight simmers want?

Geof, it is an interesting scenario for simmers to consider if played out over the next three years or so....perhaps a poll here at Avsim which asks the questions about what condition the hobby, the community, and simmers would be in if commercial vendors output tapered down to no new output over the next three years.There has been an adversarial relationship between users and commercial developers for as long as I've been involved in this hobby.Perhaps users may gain some insight into their own behaviour alongside commercial vendors who can elect to either expand their operations or allow them to decline thereby assuring the decline of the hobby and the community.I'm sure that there are more than a few who will hold the "so what I've got plenty now" view if vendors cut back to no output but those are the less thoughtful among us.There is an old adage that goes "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. :( Anyway, food for thought....

[Guest Nick_N]

Geof, it is an interesting scenario for simmers to consider if played out over the next three years or so....perhaps a poll here at Avsim which asks the questions about what condition the hobby, the community, and simmers would be in if commercial vendors output tapered down to no new output over the next three years.There has been an adversarial relationship between users and commercial developers for as long as I've been involved in this hobby.Perhaps users may gain some insight into their own behaviour alongside commercial vendors who can elect to either expand their operations or allow them to decline thereby assuring the decline of the hobby and the community.I'm sure that there are more than a few who will be hold the "so what" view if vendors cut back to no output but those are the less thoughtful among us.There is an old adage that goes "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. :( Anyway, food for thought....

This is a topic that deserves thoughtful community discussion Ron. A lot of users may not be aware of the shifts that are being looked at by developers toward different markets. As devs we know kumbaya wont stop the piracy or the adversarial relationship you mention that tends to hang between devs and users. The real world aspect of value for the work comes into question and how shifting focus to other markets removes what the MSFS world presents which are immature issues of lack of control in wide spread theft because of the work is being distributed in the game genre as well as a less than professional environment for a developer to function with users who seem to feel that developers are not focused on the customer in their product designs.@ Geofa.. I read you loud and clear, I would simply like to say that what I presented has no jealousy involved in it.. on the contrary I would like nothing more than to see a developer(s) succeed and try to take an honest lead in generating developer/distribution/user support for making stands/statements and in that process make a real difference in the subject matter at hand for the entire community, theft. What I won

[N400QW 205]

This is a topic that deserves thoughtful community discussion Ron. A lot of users may not be aware of the shifts that are being looked at by developers toward different markets. As devs we know kumbaya wont stop the piracy or the adversarial relationship you mention that hands between devs and users.

Nick, this community has been on a track towards destroying itself for quite a few years now.I love aviation and flight simulation and that was instrumental in my decison to launch Eaglesoft Development Group.I was startled to find within the first year that a few other vendors not only did not want our presence but were actually involved in underhanded means to undercut our existence.To then see the incredible lengths that users are willing to go to cast dispersions on anyone who disagrees with their favorite viewpoint is to see the community actively involved in destroying itself. :( It seems there is a solid core left in this community who still love aviation and flightsimulation but they are much harder to recognize over the "din of the fringe" who obviously could not care less about the direction this community is headed toward.If the community continues to bite and tear each other there won't be much left except table scraps :(As to the piracy question, we are taking a serious look at the option outlined earlier in this thread:The option as outlined is a new paradigm for software creators/vendors to protect their investment.It is common practice for pirates to purchase a new release, hack, then distribute the hacked version...The most workable solution may be as simple as the following....If Hacker A obtains a new release, attempts to hack, and renders the underlying software unusable (read unfit for use) he would then be at a disadvantage if he wished to distribute unusable (read unfit for use) software.In addition, the unusable (read unfit for use) result would occur upon every subsequent hack attempt unless the hacker wished to re-engineer the underlying software. Something they are incapable of doing :( Again, this would have no effect on Legitimate Users since they do not attempt to hack their own software. :(

[Guest plimmy]

This is a topic that deserves thoughtful community discussion Ron. A lot of users may not be aware of the shifts that are being looked at by developers toward different markets. As devs we know kumbaya wont stop the piracy or the adversarial relationship you mention that tends to hang between devs and users. The real world aspect of value for the work comes into question and how shifting focus to other markets removes what the MSFS world presents which are immature issues of lack of control in wide spread theft because of the work is being distributed in the game genre as well as a less than professional environment for a developer to function with users who seem to feel that developers are not focused on the customer in their product designs.

I wonder if all these posters were standing in the same room, if they would be talking to each other like this? I really dont understand why Nick is so upset over this...................if they want to protest for a few hours then thats not the end of the world. I now think it was a good idea...........despite the obvious snide remarks (Nick), this discussion is interesting.

[Guest ArtieLange]

DJJose-my sentiments exactly.Some things I have trouble understanding in this thread.1) Why is there so much angst against a company that has produced what many have called some of the finest payware additions for fs ever, not to mention countless extremely fine freeware-all for shutting down their site for 24 hours? Was anyone's life actually ruined by this action? Did this action negate all the freeware and payware that I have seen so many people rave about? Doesn't it seem rather silly especially weighing what has been given?

Because it was nothing but a publicity stunt, and a poor one at that. I'm sure they got a few sales from people feeling sorry for them, and a few people turned off by their little stunt. Hard to tell if it was a success or not.

2) Why do some wish to rationalize that blatantly stealing from payware producers is a fact of life, something we should accept as part of today's world, and then try to insinuate that those who don't pirate ,steal, and try to lead their lives in an honorable fashion somehow do it anyway-so what is the big deal and how hypocritical. Is the idea of supporting a company or someone who is trying to make a statement/deal with this horrible problem somehow more repugnant than the pirates that create the problem? It sure comes off this way.

If you are going to sell software, it will be pirated, period. No amount of SecuROM, Starforce etc will stop it. If they can't deal with that then maybe they should only sell from a brick and morter....................except........ people shoplift.............employees steal................Ok, maybe they should.......................I don't know.Imagine if this stunt was pulled by your local grocery or retail store, you think theft only happens in the digital world ? You think it's a good idea for the local Piggly Wiggly to make it a hassle for you because some other people shoplift ? How is it your problem or concern that the amount of shrinkage in retail is huge ? Why should you be inconvienced by that ?

I wonder if all these posters were standing in the same room, if they would be talking to each other like this? I really dont understand why Nick is so upset over this...................if they want to protest for a few hours then thats not the end of the world. I now think it was a good idea...........despite the obvious snide remarks (Nick), this discussion is interesting.

Snide ? Nick was speaking the truth IMHO, but some people can't see the forest for the trees.

[Geofa 108]

Because it was nothing but a publicity stunt, and a poor one at that. I'm sure they got a few sales from people feeling sorry for them, and a few people turned off by their little stunt. Hard to tell if it was a success or not.If you are going to sell software, it will be pirated, period. No amount of SecuROM, Starforce etc will stop it. If they can't deal with that then maybe they should only sell from a brick and morter....................except........ people shoplift.............employees steal................Ok, maybe they should.......................I don't know.Imagine if this stunt was pulled by your local grocery or retail store, you think theft only happens in the digital world ? You think it's a good idea for the local Piggly Wiggly to make it a hassle for you because some other people shoplift ? How is it your problem or concern that the amount of shrinkage in retail is huge ? Why should you be inconvienced by that ?Snide ? Nick was speaking the truth IMHO, but some people can't see the forest for the trees.

artie-thanks for making the end of my evening truly sad..

[N400QW 205]

Artie, that sentiment has been posted in this thread ad infinitum.Really boys and girls, how many times are you going to beat this dead horse? :(

[rightseater 0]

Artie, that sentiment has been posted in this thread ad infinitum.Really boys and girls, how many times are you going to beat this dead horse? :(

Another great question. Come on folks, please be respectful and let's keep this thread going with sane, rational debate. I've got my mouse cursor on the "lock thread" button and my finger's getting awfully tired.

[N400QW 205]

Perhaps a new thread which discusses the issues Geof and others have mentioned is in order :(

[Guest Nick_N]

Artie, that sentiment has been posted in this thread ad infinitum.Really boys and girls, how many times are you going to beat this dead horse? :(

I will second that.. I did post my opinion about what happened and replied to the returns on what I posted however if it is possible to salvage this topic and turn it into something truly informative as well as useful to the community, then I am all for it a new thread may be a good idea tooRon the proposed solution, which I did read earlier and I apologize for not commenting, you have presented in overview appears to address the issue at hand and I can see that as a viable solution. Have you collected any research (in house or with perhaps a test release) that would secure a product in the way you have suggested? I would be very interested in discussing the requirements of such a design. I am not so sure items such as basic texture replacements could be secured in such a way as those can be distributed once decompressed from their download packages. Once in the sim there is nothing to stop the application from flagging the product as unlicensed unless each sim start and exit included a install/uninstall of said texture product. Aircraft and other scenery items which may have control files attached I can see your suggestion working.This was something I had thought of suggesting for the next FS platform when Aces was monitoring the forums.. a encoded system so each file name would be truncated with a legal license code that required periodic online verification.. something Aces would have needed to implement in the core system itself.

[N400QW 205]

I'm not at liberty to discuss any of this in a public way and of course could not discuss proprietary techniques at all. I've outlined possibilities more as a "trial balloon" to provide a bit more "food for thought" to those who may wish to look at the antipiracy issue from another angle.It is quite clear that laws against, and prosecutions/penalties for piracy, are largely ineffective.What may prove to be effective is for software creators/vendors to be proactive in their methods and techniques prior to release.At the end of the day, software creators/vendors are not obligated by either law or morality to deliver a fully functional product to anyone who attempts to hack a product.Again, such methods do not effect Legitimate Users at all since Legitimate Users do not attempt to hack their software. :(