I'm not at liberty to discuss any of this in a public way and of course could not discuss proprietary techniques at all. I've outlined possibilities more as a "trial balloon" to provide a bit more "food for thought" to those who may wish to look at the antipiracy issue from another angle.It is quite clear that laws against, and prosecutions/penalties for piracy, are largely ineffective.What may prove to be effective is for software creators/vendors to be proactive in their methods and techniques prior to release.At the end of the day, software creators/vendors are not obligated by either law or morality to deliver a fully functional product to anyone who attempts to hack a product.Again, such methods do not effect Legitimate Users at all since Legitimate Users do not attempt to hack their software. :(

One thing that continues to elude me is any hard data related to pirating. I've taken the time to research the issue, which has made me an "EXPERT" on the subject, but I would like to know how much pirating has effected developers and what method they use to determine that pirating was the cause of the lost revenue they claim. Oh, and before anyone misreads this, I'm NOT challenging the fact that pirating is evil and adversely affecting developers, I just don't realize how much. Perhaps many in the community don't truly understand how much. Perhaps it is not as much as some would have us believe. Some hard facts on the topic would be appreciated.

I'm not at liberty to discuss any of this in a public way and of course could not discuss proprietary techniques at all. I've outlined possibilities more as a "trial balloon" to provide a bit more "food for thought" to those who may wish to look at the antipiracy issue from another angle.It is quite clear that laws against, and prosecutions/penalties for piracy, are largely ineffective.What may prove to be effective is for software creators/vendors to be proactive in their methods and techniques prior to release.At the end of the day, software creators/vendors are not obligated by either law or morality to deliver a fully functional product to anyone who attempts to hack a product.Again, such methods do not effect Legitimate Users at all since Legitimate Users do not attempt to hack their software. :(

Understood.. and from the overview I did consider there were proprietary techniques involved.. I like the concept Ron and I agree with the 'legitimate user reward' approach. Its a shame but even some legitimate users may stray from time to time in the less than legal approach to owning a product. Its not that I am down on human nature, but more on the lines of being in tune with realistic statistics :(A legitimate user who may stray and who would be presented with such a security feature would probably get the message pretty fast. Its that part of the community I do think can be reached and reasoned with in that respect however as you (or perhaps someone else said), there will always be those who will maintain an attitude of if it can be obtained for free, why pay and if they can not get it for free wont buy the product anyway

You'll be hard pressed to find developers who are willing to quantify losses due to theft in a public way. This is true with other retail and wholesale businesses as well.You might find public estimates by big box stores to justify price increases but how are you to really know the impact of theft on any business unless they grant access to numbers? :( It remains to be seen whether loss due to theft will be reduced or brought to nothing by techniques like those I've pointed to earlier but it is intriguing to consider.By the way, I am not one who considers that every act of piracy equals a lost sale. There is a certainty that if only a legitimately purchased product is "fully functional" then the equation changes by a factor of X.

One thing that continues to elude me is any hard data related to pirating. I've taken the time to research the issue, which has made me an "EXPERT" on the subject, but I would like to know how much pirating has effected developers and what method they use to determine that pirating was the cause of the lost revenue they claim. Oh, and before anyone misreads this, I'm NOT challenging the fact that pirating is evil and adversely affecting developers, I just don't realize how much. Perhaps many in the community don't truly understand how much. Perhaps it is not as much as some would have us believe. Some hard facts on the topic would be appreciated.

Well.. without giving anything away.. one method is in looking at the total sales of the RTM package with respect to their license check connections on install, and reviewing the recorded statistical data for the patch(es) which were interface obtained after the factI am not getting into details about it and of course there is always going to be a margin of error in such an approach, however it is possible to obtain a reasonable estimate of loss in income from a direct usage standpoint, and, it is possible to gain information about a few other things too which may help secure the next product in initial release for a period of time longer than the one prior but eventually it will most likely be defeated. I could not place any value in counting P2P/seed connections or looking at the P2Ps other than to know the product is in fact being distributed on those networks. Anyone who cays they can ID a loss and define it based on that information is stretching things a bit far.

You'll be hard pressed to find developers who are willing to quantify losses due to theft in a public way. This is true with other retail and wholesale businesses as well.You might find public estimates by big box stores to justify price increases but how are you to really know the impact of theft on any business unless they grant access to numbers? :( It remains to be seen whether loss due to theft will be reduced or brought to nothing by techniques like those I've pointed to earlier but it is intriguing to consider.

That's understood. I don't challenge the fact that pirating is effecting FS developers. In fact, I'd bet the bank, what little I have in it anyway, on that fact. I just don't understand how the distinction is made between lost revenue due to pirating and other factors such as the economy. Let's be clear one more time because I'm already feeling the heat from this fire, I am NOT saying pirating doesn't effect developers, nor am I suggesting it is in any way justified whatsoever. I just think that many don't truly understand how much. It would be nice if there were some way to realize the effects.

Understood.. and from the overview I did consider there were proprietary techniques involved.. I like the concept Ron and I agree with the 'legitimate user reward' approach. Its a shame but even some legitimate users may stray from time to time in the less than legal approach to owning a product. Its not that I am down on human nature, but more on the lines of being in tune with realistic statistics :( A legitimate user who may stray and who would be presented with such a security feature would probably get the message pretty fast. Its that part of the community I do think can be reached and reasoned with in that respect however as you (or perhaps someone else said), there will always be those who will maintain an attitude of if it can be obtained for free, why pay and if they can not get it for free wont buy the product anyway

I'm not sure if you are a real world pilot or not but real pilots are trained to recognize and respond to a phenomonon known as "transitioning from pilot to passenger".It is quit easy to mentally become a "passenger enjoying the flight while actually sitting left seat as PIC."I mention this because you state that Legitimate Users may stray....The moment Legitimate Users stray they have "transitioned from Legitimate User to hacker and would of course render their software unusable" :(

That's understood. I don't challenge the fact that pirating is effecting FS developers. In fact, I'd bet the bank, what little I have in it anyway, on that fact. I just don't understand how the distinction is made between lost revenue due to pirating and other factors such as the economy. Let's be clear one more time because I'm already feeling the heat from this fire, I am NOT saying pirating doesn't effect developers, nor am I suggesting it is in any way justified whatsoever. I just think that many don't truly understand how much. It would be nice if there were some way to realize the effects.

If we all said it is substantial enough to justify the hard work and new techniques to prevent the loss would that suffice? :(

I'm not sure if you are a real world pilot or not but real pilots are trained to recognize and respond to a phenomonon known as "transitioning from pilot to passenger".It is quit easy to mentally become a "passenger enjoying the flight while actually sitting left seat as PIC."I mention this because you state that Legitimate Users may stray....The moment Legitimate Users stray they have "transitioned from Legitimate User to hacker and would of course render their software unusable" :( If we all said it is substantial enough to justify the hard work and new techniques to prevent the loss would that suffice? :(

It would suffice for me. In fact, I don't need any explanation. Pirating is disgusting, it's that simple. I just wonder if perhaps more information on the subject consisting of hard facts might help some people to appreciate the subject more.

Nope. They don't care because it is not happening to them.Few are aware or care about the fact that a large percentage of a given price increase at retail is to cover loss due to theft. :(

I'm not sure if you are a real world pilot or not but real pilots are trained to recognize and respond to a phenomonon known as "transitioning from pilot to passenger".It is quit easy to mentally become a "passenger enjoying the flight while actually sitting left seat as PIC."I mention this because you state that Legitimate Users may stray....The moment Legitimate Users stray they have "transitioned from Legitimate User to hacker and would of course render their software unusable" :(

yes sir, I have maintained my PPL. I DO very much understand the instantaneous transition from legit user to hacker. I was trying to be 'just a little' less provocative than usual :(

If we all said it is substantial enough to justify the hard work and new techniques to prevent the loss would that suffice? :(

no question about it...

Nope. They don't care because it is not happening to them.Few are aware or care about the fact that a large percentage of a given price increase at retail is to cover loss due to theft. :(

Fair enough. To be honest I'm just happy to see this thread back on the right track. Let's all keep it that way please.

That

One thing that continues to elude me is any hard data related to pirating

Until a developer of a popular addon comes out and tells us the exact sales figures we may never know, however I take a guess that FTX Blue has sold 5-8000 copies, pirated copies would therefore be about 15,000. How many of those were lost sales nobody knows, but as alluded to earlier in the thread the level of intelligence over the TPB etc is something akin to pond life. Therefore I don't think that too many would buy it anyway.That is just a guess off the top of my thick head, unless they tell us different I'm running with that :(

Stunt or statement...I can tell you what a stunt is. If i am the first one to upload the torrent, which nukes your OS back to the stone-age if you don't have the latest and greatest protection. That's a stunt... :( Reading through all the FS forums out there makes me believe that John Venema's message had a positive impact. Voices stating otherwise are of course the loudest - like always... For me the most surprising moment was when those chaps outed themselves as pirates and apologized. It doesn't matter if they are six or six hundred - it's a positive sign and shows that at least some start to think about their actions. Shows me that something can be achieved without holding a gun to their head.Of course almost all those torrent kids wouldn't purchase the software anyways - every developer is aware of that.

If Hacker A obtains a new release, attempts to hack, and renders the underlying software unusable (read unfit for use) he would then be at a disadvantage if he wished to distribute unusable (read unfit for use) software.

Isn't that just another thing for a hacker to circumvent? Instead of hacking the protection, it's hacking the hacker protection?!

To get to the real core of the whole thing,I don't think that the pirates are the problem.The real problem is the person or persons who uploaded the software to the pirate site to start with.Catch the people doing that and the piracy stops.I think that is logical.It seems to me that someone is buying the software to start with and then uploading to the pirates site,or getting a trial version and doing the same thing.Either way they are the ones who need to be stopped.Quite simple really,the hard part catching the s.o.b doing it.Just my 2 cents worth