John Venema's message is sad, touching, and doesn't augur a sunny future for FS.It is so true that piracy is putting developers off doing addons and killing our hobby.None of them expect big revenues from their work, they just don't want to loose money.They are just passionate and talented fellows.But there is something I can't understand.Downloading torrents is like eating everyday in a different famous restaurant without never paying the bill.How can they (the pirates) appreciate the taste of the food, the wine or the atmosphere if they eat every lunch and diner without this pleasure we have when something is rare and moreover without respecting the work, the art and the knowledge that is behind their meal?How can they appreciate a new scenery, a new airplane if they get hundreds of them a month?Is the aim just downloading and installing a software??If you give a child every toy he asks for, he will never enjoy them, his room will be full of new products but his heart will remain empty and sad.No matter how rich you are, you only enjoy what you can't get easily and what you get by giving something in return.And I don't speak about the fact that they are sawing the branch of the tree they are seating on.One day, very soon unfortunately, this hobby will die because of these greedy people that don't know the joy of satiation and the price of the work.

A statement is when you post a message on your forum or website. Shutting down your forum for 24 hours isn't a statement, it's a stunt and it's a lot more effective than just posting a statement. Do you think there would have been so much discussion on forums if John Venema had simply posted a statement saying "please buy legitimate ORBX products rather than downloading torrents"?Semantics aside I think the ORBX idea was a good one (although as Nick N says it would have carried more weight if ORBX had got together with other developers and made a mass protest). As you say Mango, at least some people are starting to think about their actions and when we live in a world were people download software, music , movies etc without a second thought then that's a good thing.What's unfortunate is that so many people seem to be focussing on peripheral issues rather than focussing on the content of John's initial message. Giddybert: Regarding downloads aussiex shows that about 6000 people downloaded the freeware OZx airports package for FTX. How many of these downloads were by legitimate FTX customers and how many by people using torrents? Well, I'm sure ORBX knows how many copies they've sold and can work that one out. If 15,000 people took the effort to download the torrent of FTX then surely they would have downloaded the free OZx as well and the total number of downloads would be 15,000-20,000.PS. Excellent post David Roch

Well, you can make a statement in many different ways - and you can call it of course like you wish. I won't argue about that.

A statement is when you post a message on your forum or website. Shutting down your forum for 24 hours isn't a statement, it's a stunt and it's a lot more effective than just posting a statement. Do you

The statement is from a professional standpoint just plain impolite and not useful because most of the users here are aware of the fact that there is piracy out there and it's not done to steal and are supportive customers / simmers..It's just a matter of respect for other peoples work and just pay for it and to have a valid license.No copy protection or action will prohibited piracy but it begins with your children to raise them witha different attitude towards software and licensing.Why I think the action is impolite and not useful?Because it hurts (even 24 hours it's the principal here for narrow thinking and to shut off your supporting customers too ;-)) the loyal supportive customer as with the copy protection stuff.No software can be made safe for anyone to use with out licensing if there is enough interest from those dark sides. The solutions is just a change in attitude in general towards software and legal stuff. Actually ORBX is so small in software land that it will be hardly noticed, Flightsim in general is far to small to make that change in attitude.Hence we even found our freeware stuff was sold on ebay imagine that :( and even still now my VC files floating around those sites (google is refreshing)I have here more the feeling a developer is in need of funds and is doing everything to get the attenttion.I applaud every action to stop this kind of behavior but without hurting your supporting customers (which will of course say it's ok because they are supportive). I'm really amazed by this naive approach because all those non supportive folks having a big laugh over us supporting customers / developers.Isn't that ironic no one thinks out of the box and comes up with a solution that won't hurt there paying customers but indeed the non legal folks.The funny thing is they probably don't care if ORBX is going out of business.Because most hardcore and supporting simmers you find are active in the forum here anyway and will support the community.Cheers,

'When they came for the feeble of mind, I did not say anything because I was not feeble of mindWhen they came for the gypsies, I did not say anything, because I was not a gypsieWhen they came for the Jews, I did not say anything because I wasn't a JewWhen they came for the Catholics, I did not say anything because I wasn't a CatholicWhen they came for me, there was noone left to say anything'I had rather do something and be burnt on the stake than do nothing and let the plebs take our blood, sweat and tears from us without even as much as a fight. This will be the last that I say on this, I am tired of defending what was intended to be a thing for Orbx themselves, we did not go out and put it on websites as threads or posts and as far as the continous enumeration of this as a stunt, again, if you even knew me a little you know this would be untrue and a falsifying statement of the true intent.

Every schema, from Flight1 Wrapper to FSDreamteam's BGLMAN to Ariane's crazy keygens have been broken and freely distributed.

Yes, but if it takes months after the release of a product to crack a specific version of it, and the use of the cracked version would left that user forever stuck with that specific release, without being able to get any update or fix because, in the time the crack appeared, many new products and patches were released, making it useless, piracy in this case it's not really hurting, because we can safely say that, an user prepared to live with such compromises, wasn't really interested in the product in the first place, so that's not really counting as a lost sale.So, in our case, we just think our old cracked versions are like "extended Trials", if an user is interested in the product, he'll realize sooner or later, than the only way to use it fully, with updates and the ability to use the latest products, is to buy it legally.What really hurts is 0-day piracy, when a product is immediately available from pirate sites, the same day or few days after it has been released. This becasue, the big bulk of the sales, at least the one that gives the developer at least some breathing room to develop the next product, is done during the first month after release so, piracy during the initial launch phase IS hurting.We don't feel much threatened by piracy, because our system is designed to allow to immediately render the crack useless, either with the next product upgrade, or with the next release, and we never had a 0-day crack, the best they could do was to crack after 6-9 months after release, when we already sold what we need, and be able to develop the next product.So, piracy protection is working quite well, for us.regards,Umberto Colapicchionihttp://www.fsdreamteam.com

So, piracy protection is working quite well, for us.

Sounds like Orbx should talk to you guys, it seems the "0-day" piracy is what really upset them, and no wonder!

One thing that continues to elude me is any hard data related to pirating. I've taken the time to research the issue, which has made me an "EXPERT" on the subject, but I would like to know how much pirating has effected developers and what method they use to determine that pirating was the cause of the lost revenue they claim. Oh, and before anyone misreads this, I'm NOT challenging the fact that pirating is evil and adversely affecting developers, I just don't realize how much. Perhaps many in the community don't truly understand how much. Perhaps it is not as much as some would have us believe. Some hard facts on the topic would be appreciated.

So despite being an expert and a Forum Moderator - (very well done by the way!) you still don't know just how much piracy equates to lost sales because the developers can't provide the numbers. I'd also like to know except of course it's impossible to say. It's an imponderable. You can say that the last release sold 3000 but the new one only sold 1000 and that must be because it was posted on a torrent site and the other 2000 people probably got it from there instead. You could say that it was selling an average of 200 copies a week until it was pirated and since then it's been about 50. But you can't prove it. It's not like you are a shopkeeper and can prove that the till receipts and the stock levels don't add up and there are fifty pairs of shorts missing from the racks. Or you can say that you've sat and watched 500 people download it from TPB in the last three hours. But again, you can't prove that any of them would have paid for it if it wasn't available illegally. And you can't prove that any of them were previously legitimate customers who decided they would get them for nothing from now on. And why does everyone keep saying that piracy will kill the hobby?'The hobby will die', 'The developers will just go and do something else and your hobby will die'. etc, etcFirst of all, the developers can give it all up and go and live on a commune together in Montana if they want to - my hobby certainly won't die. If there were no more payware add-ons - if it all stopped tomorrow, believe me my hobby would not die. My interest in FSX is not dependant on payware developers. Of course I absolutely appreciate what some of them have provided over the years. Some of them have sold us truly wonderful addons - a remarkable one in the last week in fact. But if they all decided to go and grow vegetables instead, my hobby would not die. My hobby didn't die when Microsoft decided to pull the plug on Flight Simulator altogether. I didn't say 'Oh well, that's it then. It's all over', uninstall FSX and throw the discs away. And I was passionate about simming long before there were any payware developers around. Secondly, doesn't this all show a terrible lack of faith in us legitimate customers?What you are basically saying is that developers will give up and the hobby will die because eventually we in the FS community - all of us who visit these forums will all give in and download our add-ons illegally instead of purchasing them. Is that really what you are saying? That you don't trust your existing customers who have kept you in Cheerios for the past ten years or so. You wouldn't dream of downloading pirated software yourselves, oh no! But us lot, your clients, can't be trusted and will surely give in to temptation and no-one will buy from you legally ever agian. Thanks for the vote of confidence!Your products are mostly being pirated by children and idiots who have most certainly never bought any of your products anyway and never would - not by us. As long as you keep releasing good products we want to pay for then we will continue to do exactly that. You may lose a certain percentage to thieves (as I'm sure Flight1 loses a certain percentage to 'refund-freeloaders' - something I've never seen them go on strike about) but I'm sure that there are enough of us left who are decent enough and willing to keep the whole boat afloat. Aren't there?

So despite being an expert and a Forum Moderator - (very well done by the way!) you still don't know just how much piracy equates to lost sales because the developers can't provide the numbers. I'd also like to know except of course it's impossible to say. It's an imponderable. You can say that the last release sold 3000 but the new one only sold 1000 and that must be because it was posted on a torrent site and the other 2000 people probably got it from there instead. You could say that it was selling an average of 200 copies a week until it was pirated and since then it's been about 50. But you can't prove it. It's not like you are a shopkeeper and can prove that the till receipts and the stock levels don't add up and there are fifty pairs of shorts missing from the racks. Or you can say that you've sat and watched 500 people download it from TPB in the last three hours. But again, you can't prove that any of them would have paid for it if it wasn't available illegally. And you can't prove that any of them were previously legitimate customers who decided they would get them for nothing from now on. And why does everyone keep saying that piracy will kill the hobby?'The hobby will die', 'The developers will just go and do something else and your hobby will die'. etc, etcFirst of all, the developers can give it all up and go and live on a commune together in Montana if they want to - my hobby certainly won't die. If there were no more payware add-ons - if it all stopped tomorrow, believe me my hobby would not die. My interest in FSX is not dependant on payware developers. Of course I absolutely appreciate what some of them have provided over the years. Some of them have sold us truly wonderful addons - a remarkable one in the last week in fact. But if they all decided to go and grow vegetables instead, my hobby would not die. My hobby didn't die when Microsoft decided to pull the plug on Flight Simulator altogether. I didn't say 'Oh well, that's it then. It's all over', uninstall FSX and throw the discs away. And I was passionate about simming long before there were any payware developers around. Secondly, doesn't this all show a terrible lack of faith in us legitimate customers?What you are basically saying is that developers will give up and the hobby will die because eventually we in the FS community - all of us who visit these forums will all give in and download our add-ons illegally instead of purchasing them. Is that really what you are saying? That you don't trust your existing customers who have kept you in Cheerios for the past ten years or so. You wouldn't dream of downloading pirated software yourselves, oh no! But us lot, your clients, can't be trusted and will surely give in to temptation and no-one will buy from you legally ever agian. Thanks for the vote of confidence!Your products are mostly being pirated by children and idiots who have most certainly never bought any of your products anyway and never would - not by us. As long as you keep releasing good products we want to pay for then we will continue to do exactly that. You may lose a certain percentage to thieves (as I'm sure Flight1 loses a certain percentage to 'refund-freeloaders' - something I've never seen them go on strike about) but I'm sure that there are enough of us left who are decent enough and willing to keep the whole boat afloat. Aren't there?

Like the end of the Roman Empire it isn't just piracy that is killing the hobby-it is multiple sources all conspiring together.Suggest anyone that doubts this talk to the developers themselves as I have. Some have already left the building and many are considering doing so....

I am tired of defending what was intended to be a thing for Orbx themselves, we did not go out and put it on websites as threads or posts and as far as the continous enumeration of this as a stunt, again, if you even knew me a little you know this would be untrue and a falsifying statement of the true intent.

Do you really think we the honest supporting customers aren't aware of the piracy problem? (This problem exist since the Amiga age and earlier 20 years ago)Hence why do you think we buy the stuff in the first place lolIt isn't an ORBX thing only because it involves your customers (us) too!My point is that in this case you never and I repeat never should cause inconvenience to the honest supporting customer.Closing your website + support site even for 24 hours is in my opinion targeted at the wrong audience namely your own customers..You don't have to defend anything it's your choice, but maybe to your surprise we live in a free world where we can disagree or agree and share our point of views and feelings. Point taken about the stunt Jay and I thank you for clearing that up, but your choice to do it via this method isn't mine that's all.

Isn't that just another thing for a hacker to circumvent? Instead of hacking the protection, it's hacking the hacker protection?!

Perhaps this will help. Software consists of code routines and subroutines to be run in specific ways in order to be usable.Imagine the software routines and subroutines rendered permanately disabled upon detection of a hack attempt thereby rendering the software unusable.The hacker would then facee the challenge of rewriting the software himself if he wished to make it usable and distribute it. :(

Like the end of the Roman Empire it isn't just piracy that is killing the hobby-it is multiple sources all conspiring together.Suggest anyone that doubts this talk to the developers themselves as I have. Some have already left the building and many are considering doing so....

Geofa:Okay, so when developers leave Flightsimulation Development "due to piracy" what then? Is that a well thought out decision or a knee jerk reation?Piracy is rampant on ALL software so no matter where they go as devlopers their software will be pirated. Preface that to say, software that is unpopular or is useless is indeed not pirated. So, if one can make a living on useless / unpopular software then that is indeed an alternative.How about being a movie producer? Most movies are distributed on the Torrent sites before they get to the movie theaters. Those wiley pirates again!How bout being a music producer? Well, there are more songs available for free on Torrent sites than on iTunes! Those pirates again.How about starting a nice electronics store? Well, no pirates there, because they don't call them pirates, they call them theives and burglars and while you are not looking they are walking out of your store with pockets full of your stuff. Hey and then you put in a spankin new anti-shoplifting system and stop customers from stealing from you and then your employees start putting fists full of your cash register receipts into their pockets.Okay you say, I've had it, I'm not going to sell ANYTHING. I'm going to start a company with no products and that will show the pirates and thieves! HA, no products to steal! (a company with no products or services is probably not going to do very well though) Yeah, so when your employees come in 10 minutes late every day and you pay them for a full day, that is theft. And when you have to keep buying pens because they keep going missing, that is theft. And when you catch your employees sufting the web for 3 hours per day and getting paid for it, THAT is theft. And when your copy machine is printing out the 1500 page War and Peace PDF file so your employee doesn't have to buy the book, that too is theft. And at the end of the year when you add up all the time, pens, paper, web surfing, etc that is stolen each year, its just as bad as if you had just happily stayed being a flight simulation software developer!When people stop making rash, knee jerk decisions, you look around and find that you are not alone. Microsoft could well close up shop and refuse to make another piece of software until the pirates stop stealing it. Or Microsoft could get out of the software business all together and open up a bakery. 20th Century Fox can stop making movies until they are no longer on any torrent sites or quit and open up a McDonalds, then again, how many of you have recorded a movie to VHS or DVR...YOU TOO are hurting the movie industry! Sony Music can stop making music and get into the sewer cleaning business but then how many of you have recorded a song onto cassette tape before, you know that is illegal right?When you let the PIRATES dictate what YOU do, the PIRATES WIN. The pirates don't care because there will be another developer to take your place when you leave and that software will be pirated too. When you let yourself be chased away then the criminals win. Criminals will exist no matter what you do, however we have to live our lives DESPITE the criminals. I am a business owner so I speak from a position of knowledge that theft prevention is not a passive activity. Theft prevention is a fully engaged, active activity that must constantly be monitored and tweaked. And if your only strategy against thieves is to run away that I feel sorry for you. The ironic thing is, after all is said and done, you may indeed find that perfect business with no thieves and no hackers and no pirates and on your way to your new office, you'll get held up at gunpoint on the street. What do you do then? Lock yourself in a plastic bubble and move to Mars???I own an IT consulting firm here in Chicago and recently found one of our whitepapers that was plagerized and posted to an IT site and sold to other clients. It took 6 months and over 1200 man hours at $125 per hour to produce that document (cost my firm +$150,000 US but who's counting). This is not a unique situation and we have taken steps to ensure that it doesn't happen again. SO yes, it is a free world after all, and of course we are more than free to cut off our noses to spite our faces...I can't say that I would agree that this is a good business model though.

Like the end of the Roman Empire it isn't just piracy that is killing the hobby-it is multiple sources all conspiring together.Suggest anyone that doubts this talk to the developers themselves as I have. Some have already left the building and many are considering doing so....

Oh you can't just leave it hanging like that :(What multiple sources? And who has already left the building? I haven't noticed any payware developers go missing lately. In fact I'd say the current state of payware is very healthy. Some astoundingly good payware has been released over the past year or so. And done very well by all accounts. There's also been an abundance of great freeware too. Now I'd better go and lock my computer room in case any Romans come and try to wipe FSX off my system :(

Mike, your points are well taken.Why assume that FS Developers do not talk among themselves regarding piracy as well as the current state of the "FS Cottage Industry"?We also discuss the current state of the FS Community which of course is a seperate issue from piracy.It may surprise some to discover that we are able to walk and chew gum at the same time. :( I for one am not the least bit interested in "tracking pirates with the intent to prosecute" since that is expensive and ineffective.I'm also not one who wishes to cry and moan over the fact the theft exists.What I am interested in are creative techniques which either slow down thieves progress, or stop them in their tracks.There exists a number of FS Developers who will likely cease operations not because they are moaning and groaning over theft but rather are finding that the ratio of work to reward is simply not worth their while. :(

OK guys.You can keep on discuting in the hangar chat.Topic locked here.Thx