I'm still struggling with take-offs and the "protection" mode kicking in. I've found lots of answers with a search so I'm still working on that. Take-offs are very hectic and knowing, automatically, when to engage various "schemes" after rotating will come with more practice. One thing that seems to ring true in most of what I've found is that the TO stab (trim) setting appears to need some serious pilot input after rotation? I've tried following the FD cues with very little luck avoiding the "protection" override. I'm beginning to wonder if the "stab" setting shown in the CDU is way too "nose up"? Beyond all that I have some other, less "critical" questions. My MD-11 load manager and my CDU info (ZFWCG and TOCG) used to match exactly...if I loaded the fuel I had entered in the load manager and made sure my ZFW and TOGW matched those I used in the LM, then I could right click on the CG entries in the CDU and they would match what the LM had forcast. This is no longer true? All weights are as in the LM but right clicking the CG entries comes up with different numbers now. I can't swear to it but I wonder if the PMDG update for the MD-11 didn't result in this change? Perhaps the LM did not receive the same "update"? I can't find take-off flaps charts? I've searched the "obvious" parts of the included manuals but I only find landing charts...am I not looking in the right place? I fly the MD-11 on humanitarian missions, at times, for my VA. Not being commercial flights we regularly fly back to our various bases and other fields completely empty of cargo to pick up more supplies. I cannot get an empty MD-11, with enough fuel to fly 3,000+ NM or more, within the CoG ranges...I'm always in the "red"? Do I need "ballast fuel" in an empty aircraft to make my CoG's within limits or is this only for aircraft with "some" payload? And, finally, I would like to speak to tutorials. Now, I ask that you don't automatically lock this thread because I mention "Tutorial 2". I'm not demanding it, I'm not complaining that it was "promised" (it wasn't) and I have many hundreds of pages of fine info included with my MD-11 purchase to help me. I only want to mention what a tutorial does for me. I can read all the manuals, over and over but like a RW pilot in a new aircraft, I imagine having all the steps strung in the right order lends some clarity to all the info in the FCOM, SYSTEMS and other manuals. It can help you put together all the various pieces of the puzzle that is the MD-11 into a working flight. RW pilots have the advantage of an instructor when getting a new rating...we do not. They have the advantage of an "old hand" to guide them through the familiarization process. That is what a tutorial does for me, it helps me put the puzzle together, it usually creates many of those "little light bulbs over my head" moments...the ones where I invariably say something like "I GET it now!", "Aha!" or "Really...that's how it works in practice??". Unlike a "check list", a good tutorial explains WHY you are doing this thing at this time, what might require you to make an adjustment in the procedure, what to expect from the aircraft after you perform the function...the list goes on. I find a benefit in tutorials, others may not. Again, I'm not demanding anything...just expressing my desire to see another, more advanced MD-11 tutorial, at some time, for my own personal benefit. I understand it's not something we paid for when we bought the FS9 MD-11, I understand that the various people who may be involved in making it have real lives, filled with calamity as well as good fortune. I'm not going to complain at all, I just want those involved to know that if and when it comes out, I will find great benefit in it and be greatful for the effort. Thanks.

I'm a little rusty in the MD11 but let me try on several issues:1. TO trim setting should work without massive input from pilot after rotation. Protection is due to low speed, be sure to follow the FD steering cues to avoid that.2. The loads will change if you are loading a saved flight.3. Yes, a long flight with light or no payload may require ballast to maintain cg within limits.4. Use the forum in lieu of an advanced tutorial. There are real world MD11 pilots and very experienced sim pilots who visit here and help out (I'm not in that category).

I'm a little rusty in the MD11 but let me try on several issues:1. TO trim setting should work without massive input from pilot after rotation. Protection is due to low speed, be sure to follow the FD steering cues to avoid that.2. The loads will change if you are loading a saved flight.3. Yes, a long flight with light or no payload may require ballast to maintain cg within limits.4. Use the forum in lieu of an advanced tutorial. There are real world MD11 pilots and very experienced sim pilots who visit here and help out (I'm not in that category).

I agree that the help given by pilots of the MD11 is 1st class and I would say vvery useful until the advanced tutorial comes out -but I am asking when, I am sure itwill arrive in due course! However it is sometimes difficult to actually what question to ask!Holger Seilz wrote a very good one for the PMDG 747 and I quote from his introduction:_'That's where the need for a comprehensive tutorial arises. A tutorial is a wonderfulway of learning technical systems because it directly shows the practicalconsequences of one's actions. It is a bit disappointing, however, that most tutorialsare written in a brief style and only provide you with a chain of actions withoutactually giving you the story behind it. There's a lot more to flying an airplane thanjust switch-flipping. So I decided to use my little knowledge and write one - based onactual airline procedures, but written in a more fluid, hopefully readable style.'David

Hi,For TO I get the trim within TO limits, and set it as follows: Starting at the fore limit in the green arc, trim up 0.5 units.This gives the aircraft an apparently large amount of nose down trim, but I find it flies great like this.LSAS seems to offer a form of auto-trim. Flying within roll and pitch limits, I can't remember the last time I actively trimmed the MD-11.I fly with the LSAS setting at HARD. Maybe this is the reason, but it results in a highly sensitive pitch, which apparently the real one did, too.You may want to FLEX if you're not happy using TO thrust when light.If there is a good margin between V1 and Vr (approx. 10 to 15 kts) starting after the V1 call, ease back gently on the stick to lighten the nose. As Vr approaches, start to lift the nose up at a rate of approx. 3 degrees/sec. I find that when loaded for a typical 4000 nm flight, by the time Vr arrives I'm at 8-10 degrees of pitch, and right on the Vr call, she's off. Be aware of the tail!Hold the pitch you had at lift-off and watch V2. I bug V2+10 on the AFS and aim for this. Once V2 is in the window, it is a case of just pitching to hold it.I'm unsure of the trigger (whether it is automatic or the vF/O) but passing approx. 2000 ft RA, it will enter climb thrust. Be ready for this as you will need to pitch down to hold V2 if you are still hand flying.At acceleration altitude, pitch down until you've got 500-1000 ft/min (I find 1000 ft/min is a good figure), then start to clean up at the relevant speeds. If you're flying as per charts etc.. be sure to have know your minimum vertical rate required to comply with the SID if a minimum climb gradient is quoted. If necessary, climb at max angle climb speed if you're unsure.There is no substitute for hand-flying. You will get a feeling for the aircraft, and then the takeoff won't seem so difficult.I suggest practicing hand-flown touch and gos, and circuits. You'll get there eventually. :)Procedures are pretty straight-forward. I suggest printing the checklists, and following these as you fly. If you're doing touch and gos, or missed approach practice, be sure to run the TO checklists when able.Have a read of the Flight Crew Operating Manual, page NP.50.1 as well.Best regards,Robin.

Still no word on finding take-off charts or tables in the documentation? The only thing I have to go on is tutorial 1 and it's 22 degree flap setting...how do we arrive at that?On the last flight my CoG's matched exactly with the Load Manager's numbers...never look a gift horse in the mouth, I guess.On my last attempt things went "slightly" better...I avoided protection mode but got behind on holding pitch and had to "catch up". I apparently went beyond the LSAS limits as the AP kicked out. I never had automatic acceleration at 3,070 ft. so I'm guessing this was due to the AP kicking out? I hit Auto Flight again, to re-instate the AP but I was stuck at speed (the speed window had a number in it) until I hit the FMS SPEED button and off we went. I'm confused because I'm not sure my kicking out of LSAS caused the lack of acceleration or if I'm supposed to hit FMS SPEED on a perfect take-off? Several people have stated that it is necessary to engage FMS SPEED, one even doing it before takeoff roll? The PMDG documentation doesn't agree with that. however. I'm going to give it another go but some confusion on my part remains.

Still no word on finding take-off charts or tables in the documentation? The only thing I have to go on is tutorial 1 and it's 22 degree flap setting...how do we arrive at that?

There are several, at least, threads on this in the period after launch. The flap charts don't exist. Many real operators usually stick to the same flap setting, which varies from 21 to 23. An exact flap setting might depend on runway, thus each runway has a takeoff chart and that in turn is the reason we don't have them (lots of proprietary charts).

Victor as for flap settings and flex you can either buy TOPCAT or send a PM to Saturn_V who'll email you some free charts for flap settings and flex that he produced.John Ellison

I've had the speed protection mode and often wondered why since I did everything the same as every other time. I think in some cases the wind/Wx system in FS is so FUBAR'd that a small shift throws the MD-11 into a confused state about its speed. I often get overspeed as well during certain phases unless I use a very low cost index and keep her well below the VMO. I've been using a cost index of about 50 and that usually cures the overspeed issues, but yesterday during climb, even at 50, I was close to VMO/MMO and my load was very similar to all my other flights. I then encountered an overspeed of about 5 knots or less. It's the only plane I have that has trouble with overspeed or wind shifts. I should also mention I'm on FS9 and my FSUIPC is set to only allow wind changes of a couple knots over 10 seconds (I don't recall the exact setting, but it's supposed to prevent fast wind shifts). Plus my Active Sky is set for this as well.The MD, as awesome and perfect as it can be, has serious issues with speed I find. Not smooth like the former PMDG offerings in terms of thrust or speed control.Now, I should mention I usually only fly short hauls around 500 NM +/- and my loads are usually full but sometimes less than full. So, I'm very light in terms of overall weight since my fuel is set for 40,000 to 50,000 LBS max. I don't have time or desire to cruise for hours. In most cases I have plenty of runway and thus I set full flex of 70 degrees. I would say 90% of my take-offs are perfect. I have found I can have trouble if I don't engage certain modes and follow a certain procedure prior to take-off. Example, If I dial the heading bug for the runway course during preflight I will have trouble with the plane turning the opposite direction, regardless of which way I turn the dial to set the bug. I now must wait to line up on the runway and push the heading knob to set the correct course to avoid an opposite turn situation after AP engagement. Also, I seem to have trouble if I don't arm PROF mode on the ground. If I wait and press PROF in the air, the plane gives me issues, and I follow the correct procedure in pressing PROF above 400 feet. Often this won't engage FMS SPD, even though my references suggest it should. So, PROF on ground and ATS engaged or I can run into odd problems after take-off.The whole process from Vr to V2 and climb-out to climb thrust C/O occurs so fast that it helps to be heavy IMO. Since I'm light, I often reach about 20 degrees of pitch or a little less. Watch the speed and make sure you are above V2 + 10, but don't allow too much speed to build. You will often reach speeds above V2 + 10 whether you want to or not, but that's okay as long as you aren't making your way into 250 knots and above. Just try your best to capture a good speed at V2 + 10 or slightly above and hold it. Make sure you don't lose speed, and if you start to then nose down some. Better to gain speed, even if it's too much than lose it.The issue comes, as mentioned above, when you reach climb thrust. This is around 1300 to 1500 feet AGL in most cases, unless you change it, and it's the point where the nose needs to lower and you go from T/O thrust to your climb thrust setting. If you don't lower the nose, you will lose airspeed.Personally, I find it's best to engage PROF and ATS on ground. Then you have two options. Engage Autoflight below the climb thrust C/O, or wait until you are above acceleration height (~3000 feet AGL). For some reason, engaging AP between climb thrust and acceleration height seems to give me problems, but this might be due to certain factors I'm unaware of or pitch deviations required at this point.All in all, you just need to maintain V2 + 10 during climb out to acceleration height (AH). Beyond that, it's no big deal what you do. Hand-flying will sometimes provide a smoother ride and control over the period from Vr to AH unless you fully understand the AP and what it wants, including pitch control. If our pitch isn't where the FD/AP wants it, then you can have problems when you hit Autoflight.P.S. You can prevent climb thrust C/O by not allowing a pitch mode change or capturing an FCP altitude, but I I don't know if arming PROF on the ground without AP engagement would result in this effect. My document just says that if no pitch mode change is made or altitude capture is not experienced, then the plane will remain in T/O thrust. My guess would be, if climb thrust C/O is messing you up, that you experiment with matching the AH and climb thrust altitude in the FMS and see what happens.

Still no word on finding take-off charts or tables in the documentation? The only thing I have to go on is tutorial 1 and it's 22 degree flap setting...how do we arrive at that?On the last flight my CoG's matched exactly with the Load Manager's numbers...never look a gift horse in the mouth, I guess.On my last attempt things went "slightly" better...I avoided protection mode but got behind on holding pitch and had to "catch up". I apparently went beyond the LSAS limits as the AP kicked out. I never had automatic acceleration at 3,070 ft. so I'm guessing this was due to the AP kicking out? I hit Auto Flight again, to re-instate the AP but I was stuck at speed (the speed window had a number in it) until I hit the FMS SPEED button and off we went. I'm confused because I'm not sure my kicking out of LSAS caused the lack of acceleration or if I'm supposed to hit FMS SPEED on a perfect take-off? Several people have stated that it is necessary to engage FMS SPEED, one even doing it before takeoff roll? The PMDG documentation doesn't agree with that. however. I'm going to give it another go but some confusion on my part remains.

My post is long, sorry. I'm unsure what you mean by AP kicking off by you going beyond a certain pitch. If AP was on, then I'd assume it should correct for the deviation and nose down or up. I guess if that deviation was too much and speed protection resulted, then you might lose AP. I kinda don't get what happened in your situation there.Regardless, You don't need to press FMS SPD prior to take-off. Just engage PROF mode before starting your take-off roll and make sure ATS is on by pressing Autoflight once. Then slowly advance the throttle until ATS kicks in to TOGA and that's it. Once you get above 100 feet, you can press Autoflight again and engage the AP. That will put your speed mode in the ATS/AP control and it should automatically pitch to maintain V2 + 10 and follow the FD. Then at climb thrust C/O, it will lower the nose, and AH, speed up to climb speed. It should do everything for you. Heading mode will be in hold mode and you will only need to turn to a new heading or engage NAV to follow the flight plan. Personally, I've never done this. I always hand fly to at least a couple thousand feet or more.

Thanks Dan and John. John, I took a quick look at the TOPCAT aircraft list and will hold off to see how many more they add. I'll give Saturn_V a PM.

My post is long, sorry. I'm unsure what you mean by AP kicking off by you going beyond a certain pitch. If AP was on, then I'd assume it should correct for the deviation and nose down or up. I guess if that deviation was too much and speed protection resulted, then you might lose AP. I kinda don't get what happened in your situation there.Regardless, You don't need to press FMS SPD prior to take-off. Just engage PROF mode before starting your take-off roll and make sure ATS is on by pressing Autoflight once. Then slowly advance the throttle until ATS kicks in to TOGA and that's it. Once you get above 100 feet, you can press Autoflight again and engage the AP. That will put your speed mode in the ATS/AP control and it should automatically pitch to maintain V2 + 10 and follow the FD. Then at climb thrust C/O, it will lower the nose, and AH, speed up to climb speed. It should do everything for you. Heading mode will be in hold mode and you will only need to turn to a new heading or engage NAV to follow the flight plan. Personally, I've never done this. I always hand fly to at least a couple thousand feet or more.

Thanks for the reply Chris!My understanding of the LSAS system is that it will trim the aircraft by itself. HOWEVER...if you push too far forward or pull too far back on the yoke, you will disengage LSAS. I had to push pretty far forward to catch up with the FD bars and maintain speed...and I then got an AP disconnect. I have no real idea if that is why the AP disconnected or if that is why I never automatically went into acceleration speed (FMS SPEED). I just know that I had to re-connect AP with AUTO FLIGHT and the only way the aircraft would accelerate was to click FMS SPEED which moved my speed bug to 250 and got me "settled out". After that things went perfectly.I have never yet had the "acceleration speed" work, on it's own? I always have to hit FMS SPEED to get the aircraft to accelerate to 250. Then again, I haven't ever had a perfect take-off where something didn't go wrong (Protection mode, LSAS or AP disconnect). What I might need is a Boeing to McDonnall-Douglas translation dictionary! :( Boeing / MDAP / ?Auto throttle / ?Heading mode / ?VNAV / PROF?LNAV / NAV? See what I mean? LOL!

AP is AP, just the buttons are marked differently. Boeing is usually CMD and the MD-11 is AUTOFLIGHT.Autothrottle or A/T on a Boeing is Autothrottle System or ATS on the MD-11.Heading modes are the same as far as I can recall.VNAV is basically called PROF on the MD-11.LNAV is just NAV on the MD-11.As I mentioned, arming PROF on the ground will allow "VNAV" (vertical or FMS speed) to automatically engage once you take-off and turn on the AP. Actually, even without the AP, as long as the ATS is on, it will control speed and thrust, however, the pitch needs to change in order to make these changes work. Using AP will make the job easier. Thrust converts to climb thrust which is lower than T/O thrust, so the nose needs to lower to speed up or even maintain the same speed. Same occurs when crossing 10,000 feet to speed up beyond 250+ knots. You can hand fly it this way if you needed to, but you'd have to really watch your pitch and speed. I assume the FD bars direct you, but I always use AP on climb out.FWIW, I never touch the FMS Speed button unless I screw something up on climb out (rare now) or decide to override the speed and then revert back to FMS speed mode. Most flights I never touch the FMS speed button.

Hey Victor it appears that many people have been having the same problems as you on the takeoff with the protection mode. If you look at the thread titled MD-11: too high pitch on takeoff I have posted the old MD11 American Airlines takeoff profiles in there that may be able to help you. But regarding the flaps according to my books you want to use 25 or per TPS. So the normal flaps are 25 but other degrees will be used for takeoff when conditions exist that make it safer or more fuel efficient.Kevin W.

S-I-G-H...different flight, same result. It's almost impossible (it seems) for me to coordinate all the button pushes and STILL be able to follow the FD bars on takeoff. Once again I was busy trying to push the correct button at the correct time and got behind the FD bars. I had to push forward very hard to gain speed and the AP disconnected.I'm really beginning to think the recommended trim ("STAB") setting, given by the CDU, is BS...much too nose up. I'm going to alter that and try again.

Hey Victor it appears that many people have been having the same problems as you on the takeoff with the protection mode. If you look at the thread titled MD-11: too high pitch on takeoff I have posted the old MD11 American Airlines takeoff profiles in there that may be able to help you. But regarding the flaps according to my books you want to use 25 or per TPS. So the normal flaps are 25 but other degrees will be used for takeoff when conditions exist that make it safer or more fuel efficient.Kevin W.

Thanks Kevin...at this point I'm open to anything.It only took 3 take-offs, when I originally aquired the MD-11, to get it "error free". I don't know what the update did but it ain't helping me! :(

Thanks Kevin...at this point I'm open to anything.It only took 3 take-offs, when I originally aquired the MD-11, to get it "error free". I don't know what the update did but it ain't helping me! :(

If you want me to repost the takeoff profiles in this thread I'd be glad to help, if not I believe there on p.2 of the Md11 too high pitch on takeoff.Kevin W