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thea330flyer

How do you approach an airport?

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theres many ways to approach an airport, how do people do it in a simulator, do people normally approach w/FMC or fly headings that ATC provides? Meaning, people fly routes normally and then near airport, do they approach using FMC or disengage FMC and fly headings provided by ATC? im posting this because in FS9, you do not know the active runway, until ATC gives you the active ruways, therefore you have to change the arrival STAR which is not near anywhere you are or you have to fly headings.Getting to the point: I normally fly my route normally on the fmc, then once i approach the airport, i usually fly headings by ATC and land or sometimes fly with the FMC and land. is this normal? do pilots do this approach in real life?

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Hello,Well it all depends on what you wanna do, if you wanna fly a star, do not use the stock ATC as it will not work out if you are flying IFR. I will usally use both methods, one flight i will use deafult atc, other times i will fly IFR without atc, and sometimes i will fly online using Vatsim. the ATC included in fs9 is very unrealistic and very limited in what can be done. You may want to check out radar contact 4 as i beleive it can accomodate stars and from what i hear it is very well made, however I have never tried this product so take it for what it is.If you are flying IFR and elect not to use ATC, then you can get your weather before hand and it will give you a pretty good idea of what runways will be in use and can set up FMC from that(Hoping you are using activesky, it is really good for getting metars and such at various airports of your chosing), if while enroute you fetch a new metar and the winds have done a "reversal", then you can modify your star within your fmc to accomodate for the change.If you are using the default ATC than disregard everything above, as you can not really know what will be the active at arrival beforhand as ATC can be very strange within fs9. For the ultimate realism in atc try vatsim, the only downfall is that there isnt always controllers along your route of flight, but it is awesome nevertheless.P.S In real life, the pilot "TECHNICALLY" doesnt really have a choice in the matter, They may use a star at most busy airports, but ultimately if ATC needs to issue radar vetors then you have to folow atc Intsructions. It pretty much all boils down to "depends on the situation"

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Hi Karim. I pretty much do the same as you except for flying a GA aircraft of course. As for real world pilots, I'll leave that for them to comment about. Thirty years ago, a grass strip and a Cessna 140 in the real world don't exactly qualify me!Regards,Mel

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Hello,Well it all depends on what you wanna do, if you wanna fly a star, do not use the stock ATC as it will not work out if you are flying IFR. I will usally use both methods, one flight i will use deafult atc, other times i will fly IFR without atc, and sometimes i will fly online using Vatsim. the ATC included in fs9 is very unrealistic and very limited in what can be done. You may want to check out radar contact 4 as i beleive it can accomodate stars and from what i hear it is very well made, however I have never tried this product so take it for what it is.If you are flying IFR and elect not to use ATC, then you can get your weather before hand and it will give you a pretty good idea of what runways will be in use and can set up FMC from that(Hoping you are using activesky, it is really good for getting metars and such at various airports of your chosing), if while enroute you fetch a new metar and the winds have done a "reversal", then you can modify your star within your fmc to accomodate for the change.If you are using the default ATC than disregard everything above, as you can not really know what will be the active at arrival beforhand as ATC can be very strange within fs9. For the ultimate realism in atc try vatsim, the only downfall is that there isnt always controllers along your route of flight, but it is awesome nevertheless.P.S In real life, the pilot "TECHNICALLY" doesnt really have a choice in the matter, They may use a star at most busy airports, but ultimately if ATC needs to issue radar vetors then you have to folow atc Intsructions. It pretty much all boils down to "depends on the situation"
FS ATC is very unrealistic, and one of the problems is that i dont know the active runway beforehand, which drives me insane because i cant know the active runway. but something i want to understand is that, if you do fly headings is that still IFR even if you disengaged the FMC?

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FS ATC is very unrealistic, and one of the problems is that i dont know the active runway beforehand, which drives me insane because i cant know the active runway. but something i want to understand is that, if you do fly headings is that still IFR even if you disengaged the FMC?
Absolutely it is still IFR.you do not need an FMC to fly IFR, FMC is just a luxury :( In fact you can be coming into an UNCONTROLLED aerodrome and be IFR.Hope this helps.

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IIRC in real life a lot is laid out on forehand by dispatchers since they are in contact with the desination, they know the weather, they know what runway to expect and what STAR to expect.These are given to the crew, and of course ATC can differ, and in real life a captain can just ask what runway to expect and what STAR.You cant with FSATC nor with any addon.. so most of the time it becomes a suprise.Good luck.

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Real world IFR? SID/STARS rarely used (ALMOST NEVER). You follow ATC vectors. If Geofa reads this, he will disagree,, but then again, he follows roads,, I can't.RJ

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Real world IFR? SID/STARS rarely used (ALMOST NEVER). You follow ATC vectors.
I beg to disagree.Over here we do use SID and STARS on every airport it has one. You can receive vectors, but you have to be careful as we fly between mountains and we need to be certain the course and altitudes that are being given to us doesn't vector ourselves into a Cumulus Granitus. Accepted reasons for deviations: Emergency, avoiding bad wx, fuel and time efficiency. Apart from those, there's no reason to not follow a SID or STAR, me thinks.As for how we approach an airport. Normally, we have a repetitive flight plan (in normal airline operations) and we use that route every time. We have to be vigilant to destination weather before commencing our descent so we can get an idea of which runway could be in use. Moreover, if the airport has ATIS, we know for sure which runway is operating. Then, we usually follow a STAR, unless a clear blue sky is the one we are surfing in, so we can request/accept a "Direct-to" clearance to the initial point of the approach (a VOR, an NDB or waypoint). If the area is busy we could get vectors, and upon receive of such vectors we look into our charts to see if the course/altitude instruction is acceptable regarding the area we are flying in.And even then, in some airports, depending on their "busy-ness", you can request a runway that will actually give you a tail wind. As long as the tail wind speed is not greater than that limiting your aircraft you are safe to land.

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Real world IFR? SID/STARS rarely used (ALMOST NEVER). You follow ATC vectors. If Geofa reads this, he will disagree,, but then again, he follows roads,, I can't.RJ
I also have to disagree, not sure what part of the world you are(could be diffrent than mine) in but in my country we use sids and stars more often than not.

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I beg to disagree.Over here we do use SID and STARS on every airport it has one. You can receive vectors, but you have to be careful as we fly between mountains and we need to be certain the course and altitudes that are being given to us doesn't vector ourselves into a Cumulus Granitus. Accepted reasons for deviations: Emergency, avoiding bad wx, fuel and time efficiency. Apart from those, there's no reason to not follow a SID or STAR, me thinks.As for how we approach an airport. Normally, we have a repetitive flight plan (in normal airline operations) and we use that route every time. We have to be vigilant to destination weather before commencing our descent so we can get an idea of which runway could be in use. Moreover, if the airport has ATIS, we know for sure which runway is operating. Then, we usually follow a STAR, unless a clear blue sky is the one we are surfing in, so we can request/accept a "Direct-to" clearance to the initial point of the approach (a VOR, an NDB or waypoint). If the area is busy we could get vectors, and upon receive of such vectors we look into our charts to see if the course/altitude instruction is acceptable regarding the area we are flying in.And even then, in some airports, depending on their "busy-ness", you can request a runway that will actually give you a tail wind. As long as the tail wind speed is not greater than that limiting your aircraft you are safe to land.
Reading your comments, sorry, but you're not a.... nvmRJ

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I beg to disagree.Over here we do use SID and STARS on every airport it has one. You can receive vectors, but you have to be careful as we fly between mountains and we need to be certain the course and altitudes that are being given to us doesn't vector ourselves into a Cumulus Granitus. Accepted reasons for deviations: Emergency, avoiding bad wx, fuel and time efficiency. Apart from those, there's no reason to not follow a SID or STAR, me thinks.As for how we approach an airport. Normally, we have a repetitive flight plan (in normal airline operations) and we use that route every time. We have to be vigilant to destination weather before commencing our descent so we can get an idea of which runway could be in use. Moreover, if the airport has ATIS, we know for sure which runway is operating. Then, we usually follow a STAR, unless a clear blue sky is the one we are surfing in, so we can request/accept a "Direct-to" clearance to the initial point of the approach (a VOR, an NDB or waypoint). If the area is busy we could get vectors, and upon receive of such vectors we look into our charts to see if the course/altitude instruction is acceptable regarding the area we are flying in.And even then, in some airports, depending on their "busy-ness", you can request a runway that will actually give you a tail wind. As long as the tail wind speed is not greater than that limiting your aircraft you are safe to land.
Id like to agree and disagree on this, earlier on this topic, it usually depends on the situation, not every airport has SIDS or STARS, some of the biggest airports dot have some or have one. So ATC gives you vectors to follow, just follow them no matter what, it doesnt matter. in contrast to FS ATC you can either approach using the FMC or fly vectors, and if youre lucky and know the active runway, then you can approach with the FMC, but in real life is ATC give you headings, you absolutely have to follow them, no questions asked. the fmc is an option.

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Reading your comments, sorry, but you're not a.... nvm
According to you, I'm not a...what?
but in real life is ATC give you headings, you absolutely have to follow them, no questions asked. the fmc is an option.
Actually, you can deny vectors and altitudes. That is, if you as PIC think following such command may put you and your aircraft in danger.

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On the lighter side of the topic: I usually approach an airport with a fat wallet and at the speed limit. ( the local law enforcement just love people rushing to catch a flight! )Mel

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Poor old FS ATC.....or rather poor old flightsimmers! As it seems most still do not know how it works.I have just flown a flight LGW/MAN using FS9. http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=276156First I found the real world flight and flight number from amadeus: BA 2910 dep LGW 18:00Then the route from flight aware: LAM N57 WELIN T420 TNTThen I get the real weather via ASV 6.5 which will give me my departure runway at LGW (in this case 26L)AND it will tell me the wind direction at my arrival airport giving me some idea what to expect. (in this case 23L or 23R)Now at MAN only 23R is used for landing so when FS ATC offers 23L (as I am arriving from the south) I say no thankyou I would like 23R.Next I get my charts for both airports and deduce that I will require a LAM 4M SID and a DAYNE 2A STAR.I write the flightplan into my FMC (in this case by ISG) and write the same waypoints into the FS Flightplanner.Now it is fair to say that FS ATC does not do altitude constraints for your SID but you have written the waypoints of your SID into your flightplan so it knows and can follow where you are heading.....it will not cancel your flightplan because you adhere to the alt constraints.Now STARS it does far better. When FS ATC told me to expect vectors for rwy 23L I replied firstly could I have Rwy 23R. Then I would like an ILS Rwy23R approach.FS ATC then offered me transitions....I selected the correct one DAYNE. And Bingo! FS ATC knows I should cross DAYNE at 6000ft (as in the chart)and from then on will not hassle me. When I am established on the ILS I contact the tower.Now considering how old the FS9 database is it does a bloody good job IMHO amd these days with ADE9x one can update the approaches anyway.I really like FS ATC as it can be updated and it communicates properly with the AI. (It would be nice to hear a different accent when flying in areas out of the Americas though!....even that is possible but a mammoth job)A little tip for your SID ...after t/o and the tower hands you off. Tune to the next frequency but do not contact until free of alt constaints.So to cut a long story short. You need real weather (I recommend Activesky) Import your FS Flightplan route into ASV v6.5 It will tell you winds along your route and at both dep/arr airports.Get the charts and if possible a real world flight plan....failing that just make sure your SID's and STAR's are correct then FS ATC can give you the correct approach with the correct transition.

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Poor old FS ATC.....or rather poor old flightsimmers! As it seems most still do not know how it works.I have just flown a flight LGW/MAN using FS9. http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=276156First I found the real world flight and flight number from amadeus: BA 2910 dep LGW 18:00Then the route from flight aware: LAM N57 WELIN T420 TNTThen I get the real weather via ASV 6.5 which will give me my departure runway at LGW (in this case 26L)AND it will tell me the wind direction at my arrival airport giving me some idea what to expect. (in this case 23L or 23R)Now at MAN only 23R is used for landing so when FS ATC offers 23L (as I am arriving from the south) I say no thankyou I would like 23R.Next I get my charts for both airports and deduce that I will require a LAM 4M SID and a DAYNE 2A STAR.I write the flightplan into my FMC (in this case by ISG) and write the same waypoints into the FS Flightplanner.Now it is fair to say that FS ATC does not do altitude constraints for your SID but you have written the waypoints of your SID into your flightplan so it knows and can follow where you are heading.....it will not cancel your flightplan because you adhere to the alt constraints.Now STARS it does far better. When FS ATC told me to expect vectors for rwy 23L I replied firstly could I have Rwy 23R. Then I would like an ILS Rwy23R approach.FS ATC then offered me transitions....I selected the correct one DAYNE. And Bingo! FS ATC knows I should cross DAYNE at 6000ft (as in the chart)and from then on will not hassle me. When I am established on the ILS I contact the tower.Now considering how old the FS9 database is it does a bloody good job IMHO amd these days with ADE9x one can update the approaches anyway.I really like FS ATC as it can be updated and it communicates properly with the AI. (It would be nice to hear a different accent when flying in areas out of the Americas though!....even that is possible but a mammoth job)A little tip for your SID ...after t/o and the tower hands you off. Tune to the next frequency but do not contact until free of alt constaints.So to cut a long story short. You need real weather (I recommend Activesky) Import your FS Flightplan route into ASV v6.5 It will tell you winds along your route and at both dep/arr airports.Get the charts and if possible a real world flight plan....failing that just make sure your SID's and STAR's are correct then FS ATC can give you the correct approach with the correct transition.
I did not know that the default ATC can give you transitions? Do I understansd you correctly, ATC will give you a transition. Also,What do you use for your flight planning, you say you write it in, do you mean you look around on the map with the default atc planner and just click where you sid takes you to various waypoints. Just asking as i am very curious as to how you plan. I understand your sids but im still not quite sure how you manage with the star with default ATCThanksGerry

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According to you, I'm not a...what?Actually, you can deny vectors and altitudes. That is, if you as PIC think following such command may put you and your aircraft in danger.
I would just like to mention something on this, Absolutely you can refuse a certain instruction, however ATC can issue an instruction due to traffic avoidance etc. Yiu can refuse vectors or altitudes but atc has a much wider view of what is going on in the area, so unless it is an instruction that the aircraft is not capable of performing(ie: ut of performance limits) then there really is no need to refuse.I hear it many times aircraft asking for certain runways, or request lower etc. and get refused(this is real world, in busy airports most of the time) So this leads to tell me that unless it is going to be a very unsafe instruction regarding your carft(which ATC would hopefully never issue, but we are all humans) then within controlled airspace ATC pretty much has the last word(again as you stated as long as safety is not jeopardized)

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I did not know that the default ATC can give you transitions? Do I understansd you correctly, ATC will give you a transition. ThanksGerry
Yes, that is what most simmers miss. FS ATC will give you a transition. And will give you the correct altitude to cross that transition.Basically you want to file an IFR flightplan and if there is no transition MAKE one! :( No more vectors for me! FS ATC vectors are terrible!An example can be seen in my Lajes, Azores (TER) to Washington Intl, Baltimore (BWI) video
Where I added a JANNS transition .....being the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) for Rwy33L (note FS ATC will also ask you to descend to exactly the right altitude for the transition)In Europe most of the transitions for the STAR's are there already. When FS ATC gets you to your IAF at the correct alt .....it feels good. :(

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In all my years of simming,I never knew that the default ATC can do this, Thanks for posting this information. Now i must go try this.

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Yes, that is what most simmers miss. FS ATC will give you a transition. And will give you the correct altitude to cross that transition.Basically you want to file an IFR flightplan and if there is no transition MAKE one! :( No more vectors for me! FS ATC vectors are terrible!An example can be seen in my Lajes, Azores (TER) to Washington Intl, Baltimore (BWI) video
Where I added a JANNS transition .....being the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) for Rwy33L (note FS ATC will also ask you to descend to exactly the right altitude for the transition)In Europe most of the transitions for the STAR's are there already. When FS ATC gets you to your IAF at the correct alt .....it feels good. :(
You know i have done your method once when i was approaching barcelona, the STARS there were not good and what i did was that i completely ignored FS ATC vectors and made a good touchdown to the active runway, so heres the thing, i listen for altitude transittion but sometimes not headings. then again, headings are convenient if the airport youre approaching has no STARS

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You know i have done your method once when i was approaching barcelona, the STARS there were not good and what i did was that i completely ignored FS ATC vectors and made a good touchdown to the active runway, so heres the thing, i listen for altitude transittion but sometimes not headings. then again, headings are convenient if the airport youre approaching has no STARS
You obviously have not done my method as I am not given vectors. :(

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