If you look back at those two RAF videos in my previous post you will see that it's pretty impossible to do that kind of navigation with a moving map. You don't have the time to look inside the cockpit. And, indeed VFR means you should be keeping a good lookout for other traffic not with your head stuck inside the cockpit admiring your GPS. Rules are rules, the law is the law and in this instance it is also good common sense.vololiberista

And, indeed VFR means you should be keeping a good lookout for other traffic not with your head stuck inside the cockpit admiring your GPS.

Instead of making off the wall statements........It's much easier to keep your head out of the cockpit, thanks to GPS. I don't spend my time, scanning the map & triangulating positions from two VORs. I know exactly where I am, at a quick glance. Of course, I've mentioned this fact.....many times previously.Just because of that "off the wall", statment............I don't really care to debate with you anymore. I'm much too old for this type of petty conversion. Goodbye...L.Adamson

Instead of making off the wall statements........It's much easier to keep your head out of the cockpit, thanks to GPS. I don't spend my time, scanning the map & triangulating positions from two VORs. I know exactly where I am, at a quick glance. Of course, I've mentioned this fact.....many times previously.Just because of that "off the wall", statment............I don't really care to debate with you anymore. I'm much too old for this type of petty conversion. Goodbye...L.Adamson

Don't let yourself be caught by the authorities then! The UK CAA will take your licence away + a BIG fine + a term in prison.Make sure that you tell any passengers before any flight that you intend to:-1. Break the law2. Discount all pilot training3. Disregard common sense regulationsvololiberista

******Here's the problem with where these threads end up going:

True...But on the otherhand, this information is available (in the USA), so why not use it?

Noboby says not to use it.. no sane pilot would venture off X-country and NOT use a GPS if it's in cockpit. These threads are never from an anti-GPS point of view until YOU drag them there.And, giving it up for the sake of old school is exactly what you should do now and then, keep all the skills sharp.. but that in no way means foresaking GPS all together.. that's just foolish.Sooooo.. try to remember that when we're encouraging a new pilot to embrace radio-navigation; we are not throwing GPS to the wayside.. K ? :(

Good luck and welcome to a very exclusive club! If you have questions during your training, be sure to come back and ask, the people here (most of them) are a great resourse.

Thank you very much! Sure I'll ask questions. Hopefully, the glass vs steam debate will end with this thread. :( Incidentally, I scheduled the demo flight for Wednesday. Really looking forward to it. A very young, very inexperienced CFI spent about an hour with me, a lot of time in the cockpit, explaining many things about the plane, gauges, gns 430, etc. I really liked this kid, who is 22, and he was very helpful and someone I'd like to fly and learn from, but so inexperienced. I'll go up with him Wednesday and see after that. Again guys, thanks for all the help.

Thank you very much! Sure I'll ask questions. Hopefully, the glass vs steam debate will end with this thread. :( Incidentally, I scheduled the demo flight for Wednesday. Really looking forward to it. A very young, very inexperienced CFI spent about an hour with me, a lot of time in the cockpit, explaining many things about the plane, gauges, gns 430, etc. I really liked this kid, who is 22, and he was very helpful and someone I'd like to fly and learn from, but so inexperienced. I'll go up with him Wednesday and see after that. Again guys, thanks for all the help.

Ask him 2 questions...How many total hours does he have and is he instructing to build time or to actually instruct. If it is the latter, he may still be ok, but it 'may' take you longer to get licensed. If you think things are moving too slow, find an instructor with grey hair who isn't working towards an airline job

RE: glass vs steamGlass is great as a backup, but steam is needed to learn the basics. as many have mentioned. If you have a plane with both, so much the better. I use both when I have them, but I ALWAYS keep paper charts open and follow them as a primary when needed. Here's a short story to show why.I not only fly but also run yachts, and believe me the owners like their toys complete with every nav option available, GPS, radar, LORAN, multi displays, remote screens, the works. And on every one of them I have charts open and courses plotted.On one trip up the ICW, we got into heavy weather, in a narrow channel. The owner went balistic when I left the channel to avoid all the traffic until the weather cleared. We got into such a fight that I was ready to find a marina, pack my bags, and leave. He finally quieted down and we continued. The arguement was about the GPS and he trusted that over eyeballs and a paper chart. I won the arguement but he sulked for the next two days, until we hit Charlston Harbor. The Gods were smiling on me when I headed up the north channel so the passengers could see some of the ships there. There is a small island just south of the channel, and the GPS showed us exactly in the middle of it. Considering we were in the middle of the channel, and it was a clear day, I got the owner to take a look at the GPS then look out the window. We used two seperate GPS's and both showed the same. That was the last time he ever questioned me about navigation and his 'failsafe' GPS's. They are great when they work, but trust and verify will keep you alive.This was doing about 15kts, imagine doing 150kts in IMC and that happening. Glass is great as a backup, but not a replacement for basic navigation skills, in the history of aviation, a paper chart has never had a blank screen :(

Thank you very much! Sure I'll ask questions. Hopefully, the glass vs steam debate will end with this thread. :( Incidentally, I scheduled the demo flight for Wednesday. Really looking forward to it. A very young, very inexperienced CFI spent about an hour with me, a lot of time in the cockpit, explaining many things about the plane, gauges, gns 430, etc. I really liked this kid, who is 22, and he was very helpful and someone I'd like to fly and learn from, but so inexperienced. I'll go up with him Wednesday and see after that. Again guys, thanks for all the help.

When I first did my flying lessons at Biggin Hill UK, it was in the days before incipient spins. That is we had not only to take the a/c to the point where it would enter a spin hence incipient, but also to actually execute a spin and recover within 10 deg of the original heading!!!A good test of an instructor (and mine too before I went on to ATPL were all young and enthusiastic) is to go up with them in turbulent conditions and see how good they are at keeping the wings absolutely steady. The control column will just be a blur but the wings rock steady!And apologies to any ladies present but remember to hold your stick/control column lightly with two fingers and thumb as you would your ****!!!!vololiberista

And apologies to any ladies present but remember to hold your stick/control column lightly with two fingers and thumb as you would your ****!!!!vololiberista

I knew I would get good advice here! :(

You may disagree and that's your perogative. However you will never be a competant pilot!vololiberista

Wow.... I'm a pilot and rw controller - I'd gladly fly with Larry anyday.You seriously need to consider the airspace system between your country and the USA - they are totally different. Everything east of the pond relies on dated NDB's and VOR's. At this moment the US is decommissioning NDB's across the country. VOR's will have their time as well. Pilots need to embrace the new technology with open arms. It's called progress. There are plenty of incompetent pilots flying "steam" gauges... trust me - I hear them on the radio all the time.Anyway, to get back to the OP's query:I think 10k sounds about right for inflation and locality. Prices are usually overinflated in CA aren't they? Here in Duluth MN I could rent a C172 with "steam" gauges from a smaller satellite airport for about $80 wet and about $40 for an instructor. But if I fly from the airport where I work KDLH a C172 costs over $100/hr plus instructor about $45. Considering where I live it's not that different from what I'd expect in California.I went through a part 141 school so everything was super structured (a bit annoying at times). My PPL ASEL cost around $8500 in 2003. I used FS2002 and FS9 in conjunction with my training but mainly for familiarization or learning "flow patterns" for use in checklists. My flight school used FS9 with the instrument students (the game was required) so they could practice skills. I'd say earlier versions had better uses with instrument flying because the scenery sucked. FSX on a solid PC is good for VFR familiarization but it's true that a lot of people stick their heads in the cockpit too much - I know I do. As far as flying goes, I'm not current but obviously hold a valid medical for ATC. I'd love to fly again but financially it's not feasible right now.I'd definitely strive for 2-3 times of flying per week. And then plan to spend money after you're rated to stay current. That's what gets a lot of new pilots. They drop the cash on the training and then never fly again on a regular basis (raises hand lol!). Flying is expensive, relative to other hobbies, but it's not impossible to continue if you have a steady decent-paying job and the time. Even if you go for a 1 hr flight, you'll need to spend maybe 30min - 1 hr of preflight and maybe 15min-30min of post flight if you're on your own.

Wow.... I'm a pilot and rw controller - I'd gladly fly with Larry anyday.

He insists on flying without a map and without using his eyes to confirm his position on said map. You must understand that whilst GPS is a useful tool, aviation law in all countries incl. the US forbids its use as the "primary" navigation aid. In VFR you must use your eyes and a map. If there were to be an accident and the pilot was found to be in transgression, he risks (if still alive) losing his licence etc etc. This regulation applies "even" to x country paraglider/hanglider pilots!!!!As a pilot yourself I'm sure you spent many hours learning aviation law. In which case if you were this gentleman's passenger you would be duty bound to report him if he was flying VFR without a map!!!!!I have never said nor has anyone else that GPS is better/worse than etc etc. It is an ancilliary navigation tool used as a back-up navigation system. Think carefully about why that is so. Remember also that commercial a/c at least outside the US still use Inertial navigation as their principle aid. They use both radio navaids and GPS fixes to keep it updated.PS There many many thousands of "competant" pilots flying with "steam". And as for myself I add my voice to many many other ATPL's who complain bitterly that the "backup" alias "steam" instruments are not sufficient for when the glass switches itself off.Put yourself in this position your glass cockpit has turned itself off (it happens), your AP has dropped out because the IAS is unreliable. Now "you" have to fly the aeroplane effectively with only the artificial horizon and altimeter as a guide. You have to shut out all the computer error messages and fly by the seat of your pants. You can only do that with "steam!"vololiberista

He insists on flying without a map and without using his eyes to confirm his position on said map. You must understand that whilst GPS is a useful tool, aviation law in all countries incl. the US forbids its use as the "primary" navigation aid. In VFR you must use your eyes and a map. If there were to be an accident and the pilot was found to be in transgression, he risks (if still alive) losing his licence etc etc. This regulation applies "even" to x country paraglider/hanglider pilots!!!!As a pilot yourself I'm sure you spent many hours learning aviation law. In which case if you were this gentleman's passenger you would be duty bound to report him if he was flying VFR without a map!!!!!I have never said nor has anyone else that GPS is better/worse than etc etc. It is an ancilliary navigation tool used as a back-up navigation system. Think carefully about why that is so. Remember also that commercial a/c at least outside the US still use Inertial navigation as their principle aid. They use both radio navaids and GPS fixes to keep it updated.PS There many many thousands of "competant" pilots flying with "steam". And as for myself I add my voice to many many other ATPL's who complain bitterly that the "backup" alias "steam" instruments are not sufficient for when the glass switches itself off.Put yourself in this position your glass cockpit has turned itself off (it happens), your AP has dropped out because the IAS is unreliable. Now "you" have to fly the aeroplane effectively with only the artificial horizon and altimeter as a guide. You have to shut out all the computer error messages and fly by the seat of your pants. You can only do that with "steam!"

I just can't skip this one........I alway's carry up to date maps. I've said it several times through the course of this thread. In the US., Panel mount GPS with WAAS or RAIM "is" considered a primary navigation aid for IFR. It's been that way for several years. For VFR, it doesn't matter... however my GPS does have WAAS, and it's always been extremly accurate. At the moment, in the U.K., you don't have WAAS and you don't have XM Weather. XM weather is an very valuable tool for both VFR & IFR. Airline pilots often wonder why they don't have it....yet. How many times within this thread, have I mentioned that I have much more time to scan for traffic and birds...........thanks to the GPS. Did you happen to skip all of that? You must have, skipped it completely ....because all you could come up with,... is that my head's in the cockpit admiring my pretty GPS. I have more scanjning time, because the GPS only requires a quick glance for up to date position reports. I'm ALWAYS aware of just where I am. One other item, I don't use it, but electronic maps (paperless) are now legal here. I'm 99.9% positive one that. In the meantime, read up on your aviation law, realize that the US has 24 satellites in orbit for a purpose, and that GPS is a vast improvement for the first line of navigation in a country that's set up for it. Europe is still waiting for Galileo.edit: Note....IFR approved GPS is legal for all US airports that have GPS approaches. Most do. And many airports that didn't have an IFR approach initially, do now, thanks to GPS & WAAS.L.Adamson

He insists on flying without a map and without using his eyes to confirm his position on said map.

A bit more on this. I made a comment that Mark 1 eye balls don't always work. And someone else made a comment that paper charts don't go dark. I mentioned earlier, that a somewhat hobby of mine...........has to do with controlled flight into terrain accidents. I kind of got into that, when a DC-8 cargo plane flew directly into a hill above my home. Since then, I've studied possibly every CFIT since the 1940's. That's about the time, that Frank Sinatra's mother was on board an airplane that flew into a mountain right after departure.I live in a mountainous area, that's been averaging around three CFIT's a year. Two years ago, a fire bomber crashed into the oppsite side of the mountain from my home. They even had a small Garmin GPS with terrain features. The first officer flying, mentioned to the captain, that terrain was ahead, and would they have enough altitude? The captain didn't respond, the first officer didn't challenge him..............as conditions quickly went to IMC. They hit the mountain at 208 kts, without a mention of quickly rising terrain. My son is on a USAF C-130 crew. A few years back, a C-130 went into the mountains, just after departure from Jackson Hole, Wyoming. It's very mountainous there, and the crew was from the flat lands of Texas. The captain was a bit to complacent, and the navigator made a mistake with the scale of the map. In the last 10 years, two aircraft with CFII's have also hit the mountains around here.What GPS & glass will do..............is easily provide an advance warning in regards to terrain. It's the big picture! It can solve the problems of complacency, navigation mistakes in regards to maps, and loss of situational awareness that often happens on IFR flights, or unintentional VFR flight into IMC. It can also solve the problem of taking off on the wrong & too short runway. This is something that Mark 1 eyeballs & paper maps have often failed to solve. GPS is the future, and shouldn't be regarded as a backup to traditional radio nav, that dates back to the 1940's. Yet, some people still think that way. That's why my original comment..........was........that if the instructor has a smirk, and turns off the gps.......then throw him out. Because........some instructors really think that way. L.Adamson

Here's where Larry and I agree.. I will most certainly us a GPS for primary navigation, .. I can't imagine hopping into a GPS equipped airplane and not using the GPS... BECAUSE I'm comfy enough with radio-navigatio, to use it safely as a backup :( We butt heads when GPS is used as an excuse to all but forget other navigation methods.. and why I will shut the GPS down (or jus go to a non-map page) periodically, and practice VOR triangulation, mock position reports, and on a beautiful, VFR day in non-complex airspace, not use GPS much at all. Not an anti-GPS deal.. just me taking my responsibility as a pilot seriously.. not getting complacent about ANYthing (ala not letting these tasks get in the way of my sight-seeing .. a 'pilot-in command is not allowed these luxuries.. :( ) ..the next airplane I'm asked to fly, could very well not have a GPS.EDIT.. and if you're a new student, not yet well versed in situational awareness, and basic navigation.. the instructor should not smirk, and shut the GPS off.. he should not allow it to be on, in the first place.. plenty of time for GPS training AFTER a new pilot proves he can fly safely without it :(

EDIT.. and if you're a new student, not yet well versed in situational awareness, and basic navigation.. the instructor should not smirk, and shut the GPS off.. he should not allow it to be on, in the first place.. plenty of time for GPS training AFTER a new pilot proves he can fly safely without it :(

You know I'll disagree! Cessna 172's are equipped with Garmin 1000's for a reason. It should be GPS navigation on day one.........without hesitation. We have another thread going... on a pilots forum in regards to XM Satellite weather. It's being called one of the best additions to ever come along for both VFR & IFR flight. And I totally agree with that, since I've used it for several years. Much better real time information, than pilots have ever got in the past. and if course, it's incorported into a moving map GPS screen. edid: PS------ I guess I need to find the link, in which new students were put into planes with either steam or glass, for a comparison study. The glass students were able to comprehend navigation, far ahead of the steam students. They finished their PPLs in less time. They also started with nav on day one. This is a fact.L.Adamson