Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

NismoRR

From Flight Sim to real world pilot. Experience/opinions

Recommended Posts

Curious how many of you have gotten your PPL. with Flight Simulator as an influence or stimulus. As many if not all around here at Avsim, the dream of flying is what brought me to FSX and now contemplating going for my PPL. This may sound like a familiar story to some of you...I've always wanted to fly and have been amazed with flight. I never seriously considered getting a pilot license because life was always getting in the way. I was watching a few videos the other day of a couple 16 year olds going up for their first solo flight. This had a big impact on me for some reason and led me to seriously contemplate training for and getting my ppl. My thinking is that now I'm 46, in very good shape, have capability and desire....I was saying to myself, Todd, this is something you've dreamed about your whole life, you have nothing stopping you right now and it's a perfect time, stop talking about it and DO it. With that, I went to the local airport yesterday (F70 French Valley, Murrieta, CA) after doing some research online, asked all the preliminary questions about cost, safety, schedule, etc. Turns out that obtaining a PPL will cost in the $10-11K ballpark. Rental costs for a C172 run 125-150/hr depending on model, and $45/hr for the instructor. Requirement is for 40 hours, but I'm figuring at least 50, so $10K+ seems to be a realistic cost. It's not cheap as you all know, but doable. Got home, picked up the Carenado C172 and did a few circuits at F70 in FSX. My plan is to famiarize myself with this plane for the next couple of weeks and then go up for my discovery ride and take it from there, which pretty much means getting over the $10,000 hurdle. I'm sure there are several if not many of you that have gotten your PPL and am curious what your experiences are with becoming a pilot, and any advice you can share. I really would appreciate it.Todd

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Before talking about FSX, I suggest you shop around for another school, that one sounds kinda high priced. Also, unless you have a specific need for a PPL, there are now other options, the 'Sport Pilot' and 'Recreational' licenses. They have restrictions on them, but are far cheaper to obtain.Now to FS. It didnt exist when I learned to fly, in fact there was no internet (damn I just admitted I'm getting OLD!) However, when Flight Sim came along finally, I did use it to practice limited procedures and it did help. Flash forward to FSX. It is an amazing program, period. With the exception of the smell of avgas, it is just about 'as real as it gets' and you can certainly learn a lot from it that apply in real life. Having said that, unless you have someone that is a 'real' pilot assisting you, it is easy to develope bad habits that are difficult to break when applied to a real plane. If no one is available for you, there is tons of material on the net to help explain the knowledge and procedures needed. If you are serious about getting licensed, stick with the basics for now in FSX. Select a school, check it out thouroughly including talking to current and past students (not all instructors are created equal) and find out what plane you will be training in. The 172 you mentioned is used for a lot of training, but a 152 is cheaper and you learn just as much, not to mention a lot of schools now use 'LSA' type aircraft. Some schools are in it to make money, some are in it to help you learn. If it is the former, they will drag out your training and it will cost a lot more, so do you own 'due diligence'. Once you know what plane you will be training in, get the best you can if available in FSX, and learn the systems, (I have used the Caranado 152 extensively to help train pilots). Practice 'pattern' work until you can do it without thinking, stay on altitude, heading, speed, do climbs, descents, steep turns, etc and you will find when you get in a real plane your instructor will be impressed.One other note, if the school is FAA Part 141 certified, you can get your PPL in as little as 35 hours. No matter the school, the important thing is to have the time and money to complete the process. Try to fly at least 2-3 times a week, more if you can work it in. If you drag it out, you will forget previous lessons and it will take a lot longer and lot MORE MONEY!Good luck, one you have flown you will never look at the earth the same again.

Share this post


Link to post

I agree about checking prices - that sounds a tad high.One caution - most CFI's that I know all say the same thing - although FS gets you familiar with flight, the biggest complaint about students who learned on FS is that they tend to look at the panel way too much and pay attention to what's outside way too little.Vic

Share this post


Link to post

I started using flightsim before doing my PPL. My personal oppinion is that flightsim gave me a great deal of confidence and knowledge of the basics. In simple terms, I knew how to control a plane using all the control surfaces and I had a knowledge of basic navigation, and in some cases more advanced navigation using radio aids (which the PPL only touches slightly).However the experience itself is completely different. You cannot feel anything playing a flight simulator, where us up in the sky, you can feel everything. Your body is subjected to forces that you don't usually feel. For this reason, definately take a trial lesson. You may decide you really don't like, but more likely you will feel like it's the best thing you've ever done.During your PPL training you have two options. If you do use the flightsim, use it with caution. Its extremely easy to start shortcutting critical proceedures in flightsim which may lead to bad habits.Hope this helps, and good luck if you decide to go ahead with the training!

Share this post


Link to post

I dont have a PPL, but I do recommend you joining one of the online networks for flying if you dont already fly online, as it is going to help you a lot when it comes to communicating with ATC and also when it comes to confidence. There are of course a few differences between flying online and in real life when it comes to procedures (for example, because of our hobby not being the most popular in the world there arent as many air traffic controllers online as in real life so center controllers have to control center, approach, tower and ground at the same time etc), but for the most part its very similar and the language is the same.

Share this post


Link to post

I am a private pilot who isn't current and I want to fly about once a month with an instructor so FSX is a great way to refresh my basic control skills and since I fly infrequently, helps make the time more effective. Just remember to try to use the view of the outside as much as you can for horizon adjustments and then check the ADI, speed, altitude, vertical velocity, etc with your eyes moving about just like your instructor will tell you. You could add some traffic to make sure that you have something else in the sky to be wary of. The one big problem is the inability to easily look to your right/left/rear quarters for pattern positioning unless you try something like TrackIR (or get 5 monitors for a wrap around view - big $$). Still, you can get some of the sequences down and pretend to talk to the tower - report over the correct pattern entry areas, etc. Perhaps you already know this but the Megascenery Southern California scenery package provides a great VFR experience in your area. I live in Oceanside and really enjoy the high quality visual references from the photoreal ground. Hope you go ahead and at least take 5->10 hours of training - by then you will be landing the aircraft yourself and know if you want to go all the way.Dave W.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks so much for those helpful replies! I'm a little rushed now, but quickly,First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?I thought like you guys, 10K is a little high, but I have no experience. What should it cost? I'm not asking or looking for the cheapest price, but on average, More importantly, I would be looking for a good instructor. Someone I trust 1000% and a good personality match with me. I'm not really thinking that my time in FSX fully transfers to the real world, it's where my love to fly keeps getting stronger. And of course, I learn new things almost daily and basically want to keep going. As mentioned, and I agree, I'll have some good background knowledge. Rotate speeds, approach, controls, (I use a CH yoke, throttle quad and rudder pedals, TrackIR), trim for level flight, charts ADB/VOR/ILS, Vasi, etc., etc. But, I don't know what it FEELS like to pull back on a real yoke, turn, use a real rudder and the cumulative affect on the airplane, etc. I do usually try to fly properly most, if not all of the time. I guess that's up for interpretation, but one thing about getting my ppl, is I will learn to fly properly and I am looking forward to it. Lots of VFR in great scenery areas(PNW, NRM, Megascenery)Of course I have many questions too, about airspace for instance, how to negotiate or avoid, comms with ATC in the real world. Anway, there's a ton more. I have to get going, but will be back later. Have to practice in the 172 I got yesterday also. :( FSX is now changing a little for me. I am going to be doing more practice for real flights with it, besides the many hours of FSEconomy. Looking forward to the whole thing. Thanks again guys! Great info for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Curious how many of you have gotten your PPL. with Flight Simulator as an influence or stimulus.Todd
For lack of time I've yet to complete mine. *BUT* the first time I ever got into an airplane was 5 years ago in a 172 trainer around Kendall Executive airport in Miami.taxi, takeoff, communication with tower, approach, tower again 6 touch and goes, final landing with HEAVY crosswind all, completely on my own, not a single control input from the instructor, who, to this day still does NOT believe me when I say it was my first time, I owe it to VATSIM, FS2002, FS9 and FSX.that same day, my brother, got the flying bug, he is now a certified flying instructor, and he uses FSX on a daily basis for instrument/checks proficiency and general practice, he is LIVING PROOF that Flight Simulation can and DOES help you get there faster.. he is an Embry Riddle magna cum laude student.Take a look at this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faY1rP_PlVwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8aqi0RVtA

Share this post


Link to post

I'm a CPL holder, currently doing my Multi IR training. Here are my thoughts:- FS doesn't simulate trim and control forces well, even with the CH yoke that i'm using.- FS don't simulate updrafts and downdrafts at all AFAIK.- Yaw and rudder are really unrealistic.- IRL there's peripheral vision, but not in FS. That's why some real pilots complain it's harder to land an aircraft in flight sim than IRL.- I have TrackIR 4 but haven't used it for a while because it gives me migraines and nausea. It's really strange turning your head one way and turn your eyes the other way.If you can, find a LSA which is certified for PPL training. In my place some are and some are not so beware. They're lighter, cheaper, and have better performance than the average flight school types.(I'm rated in the 172 and the Tecnam but I did the bulk of my training on a DR400.)If you're going commercial do your training on the steam cockpit. if you're flying for fun then it's up to you.Also get your ground exams out of the way before you do some real flight training. Also training in a controlled airfield will help you brush up on those R/T skills.

Share this post


Link to post

First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?I would recommend analog (steam) first, an instrument is an instrument, but 'glass' can have any number of different softwares installed, so you will never know what your getting into until you get there.I thought like you guys, 10K is a little high, but I have no experience. What should it cost? I'm not asking or looking for the cheapest price, but on average, More importantly, I would be looking for a good instructor. Someone I trust 1000% and a good personality match with me. Shop the different schools in your area and then visit the field and talk to the instructors, thats the only way to find those answers. Price depends on a lot of factors, but I'm guessing 7-8K should get you close. To be honest I havent checked prices in a long time, but the price of avgas in the area will big a big factor. I hate to say it, because I used to be a CFI, but with the current economy, that $45 hour for an instructor sounds high.I'm not really thinking that my time in FSX fully transfers to the real world, it's where my love to fly keeps getting stronger. And of course, I learn new things almost daily and basically want to keep going. As mentioned, and I agree, I'll have some good background knowledge. Rotate speeds, approach, controls, (I use a CH yoke, throttle quad and rudder pedals, TrackIR), trim for level flight, charts ADB/VOR/ILS, Vasi, etc., etc. But, I don't know what it FEELS like to pull back on a real yoke, turn, use a real rudder and the cumulative affect on the airplane, etc. I do usually try to fly properly most, if not all of the time. I guess that's up for interpretation, but one thing about getting my ppl, is I will learn to fly properly and I am looking forward to it. Lots of VFR in great scenery areas(PNW, NRM, Megascenery)Of course I have many questions too, about airspace for instance, how to negotiate or avoid, comms with ATC in the real world. One thing you can do to help yourself, when you decide on exacty what plane you are going to be flying, is to buy a copy of the POH (pilots operating handbook) for that plane and learn the numbers and procedures, it will save you a lot of time. Other things you can do now before starting training is to get current copies of the FAR's, AIM, and sectional chart of your area. If you have access to a scanner, dial in the local airport freqs to get familiar with dealing with ATC, if you are at a controlled field. Doing all the above, I guarentee you will blow away your instructor and save LOTS of hours in the plane. Oh, one other thing. If you do decide to do flight training, somewhere around 8-10 hours (average) you will do your first 'solo', wear and OLD shirt that day ! Nail%20Biting.gif

Share this post


Link to post
First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?
I'll tell you how I feel....I'd go for the G1000. I don't believe in the basics (VOR nav) much anymore. A few years back, a group of students were divided into two groups. One group went with the basic six pac, and the other with the G1000. Since navigation began on day one, with the G1000, the glass panel students ended up with their PPL's with less time than the steam gauge students.But that comparison was a few years back. I haven't heard of any test comparisons lately. And of course, aircraft with glass panels will cost more to rent. Other than that, flight sim forums are not the best place for me to argue glass versus old school steam guages. GPS's are somewhat boring in flight simming, since they don't do near what the real product can do. Such as XM Satellite weather, terrain, obstacles, fuel management, auto-pilot control, real time TFR's and much more.I use GPS for the reasons above. Someday, VORs will be history. But you still have to know how to use them for the PPL as of now.L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?I would recommend analog (steam) first, an instrument is an instrument, but 'glass' can have any number of different softwares installed, so you will never know what your getting into until you get there.I thought like you guys, 10K is a little high, but I have no experience. What should it cost? I'm not asking or looking for the cheapest price, but on average, More importantly, I would be looking for a good instructor. Someone I trust 1000% and a good personality match with me.
You'll need to be able to be comfortable with both steam gauges and modern glass these days. If you choose to learn on modern glass, just understand it will be a lot more expensive, that you will be paying extra for things that you will not be allowed to use on a checkride, and that you may be weaker in some fundamental skills. You can always convert to modern glass after you pass the checkride. But if you don't have decent legacy skills, you may not pass the checkride.A friend of mine got her PPL last year. She trained on G1000 equipped Skyhawks. One of her regrets is that she chose the G1000 aircraft because it ended up costing over $11K. Looking back and being wiser, she felt that it would have been smarter to learn on the cheapest and most basic aircraft. You can always spend a few hours getting checked out and comfortable with a nicely equipped glass plane to do your hamburger runs with after you've gotten the license. You don't need to pay the extra overhead of a glass plane for 60 hours like she did. But it was a nice plane.As far as using the flightsim during flight training, it does help. I have had FS since FS2. I learned to fly during the FS4 era. I didn't use it too much during the private pilot phase, since a lot of it was learning motor skills, especially pre-solo. But once you get to parts that are more procedure oriented, like navigation and cross country flying, it is more useful. I would also use it post-lesson, rather than pre-lesson. You need to approach your time with your instructor with an open mind and take in what he has to say instead of getting some kind of preconceived and incorrect notion about something that you got from doing it on your own unstructuredly in the sim beforehand. Once you've had the lesson, then go home and use the sim to practice, retain and reinforce what you learned from your instructor. That will save you money in the plane by reducing time in the aircraft spent practicing previously learned material.I found FS most useful during the instrument rating. Since that is something that is almost entirely procedure oriented, it lends itself very well to flightsim. It was less useful during the commercial license since a lot of it was motor skills and visual maneuvering again. It was useful, at least Fly! was, when I was in training to fly the PA-31 with a Part 135 cargo company. These days, I use the FeelThere ERJ to practice before my recurrent checkrides in the big box for that plane. As do many of my friends and those at the mainline who use the PMDG 737 to practice for their realworld sim rides.The most important thing about using the sim is how you approach it. If you stay disciplined with it and follow all your learned procedures as if you are flying the real plane, then you will get much out of it. If all you do is turn on the computer, jump into an already running plane sitting on the runway and then just blast off and do whatever until you crash, then you will get nothing out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
and that you may be weaker in some fundamental skills.
Problem is..................what is really fundamental? Some flight instructors still believe that the VOR system is a skill and right of passage in order to fly. Other instructors can't wait for the day that all VOR's disappear. Two years ago, two long time civil air patrol pilots flew into a mountain in darkness, while fiddling with the pages of a Garmin 1000. While they knew the VOR system well, they didn't yet have the minimal skills to use the glass. Therefor, it's really the definition of "skills".The basic VOR navigation system came into use in 1943. It's very outdated compared to the extremely useful information you can get from the GPS systems. IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS. If the instructor turns off the GPS with a "smirk" on his face............then throw him/her out! I have a database of flight into terrain accidents since the 1940's. I have thousands of reasons to use the "much" improved technology. L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS.
Yes, carry along a GPS and don't get complacent with it. Make sure, in the rare but possible event that you lose the GPS, that you won't lose your situational/spatial awareness in any phase of the flight. And maybe the instructor who shut off the GPS during your training, prepared you better for this event than the one who wouldn't.Marco

Share this post


Link to post
Problem is..................what is really fundamental? Some flight instructors still believe that the VOR system is a skill and right of passage in order to fly. Other instructors can't wait for the day that all VOR's disappear. Two years ago, two long time civil air patrol pilots flew into a mountain in darkness, while fiddling with the pages of a Garmin 1000. While they knew the VOR system well, they didn't yet have the minimal skills to use the glass. Therefor, it's really the definition of "skills".The basic VOR navigation system came into use in 1943. It's very outdated compared to the extremely useful information you can get from the GPS systems. IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS. If the instructor turns off the GPS with a "smirk" on his face............then throw him/her out! I have a database of flight into terrain accidents since the 1940's. I have thousands of reasons to use the "much" improved technology. L.Adamson
What is fundamental? Fundamental is what you have when you have nothing left but the basic instruments required by the regulations. When they start making GPS moving maps part of the minimum required equipment for your Part 91 VFR flying, then we can talk. When they add your Garmin to what's required in 14CFR 91.205( b ), then you will have a case. Until then, if you can't fly a plane as safely with only the equipment listed in 91.205( b ) as you do with a big LCD moving map, then you have a problem.

Share this post


Link to post

As far as costs go... don't focus on some arbitrary total cost for the initial PPL; there are too many variables. You'll have your hands full during training, and trying to fit it into a pre-determined budget is not only impossible, it's a distraction. If you've "set aside" $10,000 for training, and end up near that total well before you're ready for the checkride, then what ?My point is.. it's a process determined not only by your aptitude, but your training schedule too. The guy who trains for a couple hours every weekend, will end up spending much more than the guy who trains three times per week. And the guy who takes each training flight only as money is available, will have spent a fortune by the time he's licensed.Then of course the next question is; what do you plan on doing with the license ? If it's more of a personal accomplishment thing, and you fully understand that several month periods between flights require those flights to begin with an instructor on board.. kinda like never-ending training .. then the initial license cost has a bit of relevance. But, if you plan on flying regularly, and staying current enough to safely take passenger up with you.. the initial training cost will become an isignificant fraction of what flying ends up costing. By the time you're a competent instrument pilot, passing the mere 1000 hour total-time mark, you'll have spent enough on flying to have paid cash for a nice house :( (quite a bit more if airplane ownership became part of it)RE: the original topic.. (Flight Sim to real world pilot).. it's been covered pretty accurately in this thread. I'll just add that simming software/hardware will more than pay for itself .. especially if you get to intrument training. That a potential pilot might pick up a bad habbit or two, is a self-correcting thing. In other words, if you can't learn to discern and accout for sim vs real short-comings.. you'll likely "wash out" in short order.. :( Glass vs Steam ... is an ever-changing topic. G1000 equipped trainers are gonna become more and more common.. if for no other reason that they are much less expensive in the long-run, for an FBO/School to maintain. Mecahnical gauges are heavy, and are subject to wear, and calibration problems. For PPL training purposes, there's nothing special about a G1000 panel. Things like GPS , terrain-overlays, and weather-interfaces are non-issues to the new pilot learning to hold heading/altitude, fly a pattern, and to find his way around by VFR. And for a VFR pilot, even a G1000 failure (lose the display and you've only got a couple of backup instruments), it's a non-issue, because he's flying VFR. My personal opinion about G1000 in 180HP single-engine training airplanes, they're over-kill.. but on the same note; a club's Skyhawk is also going to be flown by experienced members who will appreciate all the data at their finger-tips. That a pilot would willingly take passengers into IMC in a Skyhawk, is a whole, different discussion.

I'd go for the G1000. I don't believe in the basics (VOR nav) much anymore. A few years back, a group of students were divided into two groups. One group went with the basic six pac, and the other with the G1000. Since navigation began on day one, with the G1000, the glass panel students ended up with their PPL's with less time than the steam gauge students.
A G1000 cockpit has fully funtioning nav-radios, and has a classic, albiet "glass", HSI. That HSI has indicators for VOR use, ILS use, and even NDB use. G1000 cockpits do not "replace" radio navigation "basics". If the instructor was able to accelerate the student's navigational learning curve because of a G1000 GPS interface, I'll suggest that those students are less fundementally sound pilots, and their instrument training will suffer through "remedial" navigation re-training... not to mention how "lost" they'll be if they find themselves in a traditional cockpit.. or how white-knuckled they'd be if the G1000 display flickers out, regardless of GPS interface, or if there's one present at all. Maybe we need a new PPL endoresment for these pilots.. "Aircraft must be GPS equipped" .. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Problem is..................what is really fundamental? Some flight instructors still believe that the VOR system is a skill and right of passage in order to fly. Other instructors can't wait for the day that all VOR's disappear. Two years ago, two long time civil air patrol pilots flew into a mountain in darkness, while fiddling with the pages of a Garmin 1000. While they knew the VOR system well, they didn't yet have the minimal skills to use the glass. Therefor, it's really the definition of "skills".The basic VOR navigation system came into use in 1943. It's very outdated compared to the extremely useful information you can get from the GPS systems. IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS. If the instructor turns off the GPS with a "smirk" on his face............then throw him/her out! I have a database of flight into terrain accidents since the 1940's. I have thousands of reasons to use the "much" improved technology. L.Adamson
Pssssst... nobody is suggesting that "improved techology" should not be used, or that radio navigation means ignoring GPS. As for the smirking instructor... there will be plenty of time for learning GPS, but it's important that a student hone his navigation and situation awareness skills FIRST. Flights into terrain aren't a concern when you're learning to position report, and enter a pattern, and fly the pattern :(

Share this post


Link to post

I am a long time simmer. Been simming since the mid-80's. Just this past year (2010), I decided it was time to take it to the real world. My simming experience, I believe gave me a head start. My instructor was very impressed with my knowledge, and natural skills. As a long time VATSIM user, I was comfortable on the radio as well. My instructor was impressed with my radio skills right from the start. When it was all said and done, I completed my PPL and check ride in 46.1 hours total time. Getting my real world PPL is the best thing I ever did! My only regret is that I waited way too long to do it. I should have done it years ago!Regardless of whether you have sim experience or not, if you want to fly for real, just do it. You will be glad you did!

Share this post


Link to post
As far as costs go... don't focus on some arbitrary total cost for the initial PPL; there are too many variables. You'll have your hands full during training, and trying to fit it into a pre-determined budget is not only impossible, it's a distraction. If you've "set aside" $10,000 for training, and end up near that total well before you're ready for the checkride, then what ?
Absolutely agree 50% :( . Trying to make part of my student loan get a certain number of ratings has been killing me :( BUT setting a budget is mandatory if one exist in the first place... I set $7000 for my PPL. Got to $6500 there about. I looked at it as more of a goal than a distraction. With the instrument I set a goal of $5000. got it in $4800. Commercial etc...

Share this post


Link to post
Until then, if you can't fly a plane as safely with only the equipment listed in 91.205( b ) as you do with a big LCD moving map, then you have a problem.
Yes, unfortunately, history has shown many problems!In the "old days"............it was call the FSS for weather. The briefer would run through the current weather scenarios and make the suggestion if weather on your route is VFR. While in flight, the pilot would once again contact an FSS station for weather updates, if the pilot feels there could be a problem.Then things improve a bit. We get computers and the Internet. We can now look up real time weather on the Internet before flight. But my "big" GPS moving map goes a step farther. As I'm in flight, I get constant weather map overlays on that moving map. I don't have to call an FSS, as I can see the weather and wind patterns for hundreds of miles in all directions. I can make much better decisions in regards to a change in flight path if needed.If a TFR just happens to come into affect while I'm in flight, or if I somehow missed it before flight, it will show up on that big moving map of mine, as well as the exact boundaries. Speaking of boundaries, it's much easier to see military, airport, and other restricted airspace areas on the GPS, rather than looking for land marks or at the sectional ....as a bird or other aircraft heads towards my windscreen.When I land at an airport, there is a good chance that a full Jeppeson airport map (data base has 850+ airports)will appear on the GPS screen, with my aircraft's location. I can easily see the runways, taxiways and ramps from a birds eye view. Much better than an airport diagram on paper............especially when the tower/ground is telling you to follow specific taxiways, etc. You've probably heard of commercial aircraft, that have took off on the wrong & too short runway....... I wish they had, what a new Cessna 172 has. In fact, many airliners are sorely outdated in comparison to the abilites of a newer Cessna 172 with a Garmin 1000, Avidyne, etc.Now................ I could go on with accident, after accident scenarios/reports....in which the pilot/pilots lost track of it all, with the normal set of instruments you'll find in an IFR equipped aircraft. They've even done it by ignoring a moving map GPS. But I choose, to not waste the bandwidth here.... by listing just a portion of these reports. I'll just say that in the future, it will be a large "primary flight display" right in front of the pilot.........that will save the day, with it's "synthetic vision"............when worse goes to worst. I have far too many reports, that will prove just that. Thankfully, it's the future, and we might as well "discover" it now.L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Yes, unfortunately, history has shown many problems!In the "old days"............it was call the FSS for weather. The briefer would run through the current weather scenarios and make the suggestion if weather on your route is VFR. While in flight, the pilot would once again contact an FSS station for weather updates, if the pilot feels there could be a problem.Then things improve a bit. We get computers and the Internet. We can now look up real time weather on the Internet before flight. But my "big" GPS moving map goes a step farther. As I'm in flight, I get constant weather map overlays on that moving map. I don't have to call an FSS, as I can see the weather and wind patterns for hundreds of miles in all directions. I can make much better decisions in regards to a change in flight path if needed.If a TFR just happens to come into affect while I'm in flight, or if I somehow missed it before flight, it will show up on that big moving map of mine, as well as the exact boundaries. Speaking of boundaries, it's much easier to see military, airport, and other restricted airspace areas on the GPS, rather than looking for land marks or at the sectional ....as a bird or other aircraft heads towards my windscreen.When I land at an airport, there is a good chance that a full Jeppeson airport map (data base has 850+ airports)will appear on the GPS screen, with my aircraft's location. I can easily see the runways, taxiways and ramps from a birds eye view. Much better than an airport diagram on paper............especially when the tower/ground is telling you to follow specific taxiways, etc. You've probably heard of commercial aircraft, that have took off on the wrong & too short runway....... I wish they had, what a new Cessna 172 has. In fact, many airliners are sorely outdated in comparison to the abilites of a newer Cessna 172 with a Garmin 1000, Avidyne, etc.Now................ I could go on with accident, after accident scenarios/reports....in which the pilot/pilots lost track of it all, with the normal set of instruments you'll find in an IFR equipped aircraft. They've even done it by ignoring a moving map GPS. But I choose, to not waste the bandwidth here.... by listing just a portion of these reports. I'll just say that in the future, it will be a large "primary flight display" right in front of the pilot.........that will save the day, with it's "synthetic vision"............when worse goes to worst. I have far too many reports, that will prove just that. Thankfully, it's the future, and we might as well "discover" it now.L.Adamson
That's all great. Except that none of that is required equipment under 91.205b. Until a moving map GPS is required to be installed in all planes, you are unfortunately going to have to learn how to fly safely without one. Or until there is a "GPS equipped aircraft only" restriction for licenses, then maybe then you can get a license without having to learn how to fly safely with only the bare basics.

Share this post


Link to post
That's all great. Except that none of that is required equipment under 91.205b. Until a moving map GPS is required to be installed in all planes, you are unfortunately going to have to learn how to fly safely without one. Or until there is a "GPS equipped aircraft only" restriction for licenses, then maybe then you can get a license without having to learn how to fly safely with only the bare basics.
I'd like to see them required. In the meantime, handhelds can be rather cheap. We don't have to learn to fly without them. And...........in terms of safety, the bare basics always haven't worked out........have they? Complacency & loss of situational awareness have took their toll.A US Government study (1997), said it best....------------------------------------------------The safety issue is one that the USAF must address in cooperation with civil aviation organizations.Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) is a significant problem for the USAF. The T-43 “RonBrown” crash in Croatia is probably the most publicized, but other events are troubling. The CFITby a USAF C-130 at Jackson Hole, Wyoming; the A-10 crash in Arizona; and, perhaps, the recentB-1 low-level accident are all indications that more attention must be paid to CFIT. The civilcommunity was galvanized by the American Airlines CFIT in Cali, Colombia; by anotherAmerican Airlines incident at Hartford, Connecticut; and by the recent KAL accident in Guam. Inthe past five years, civil aviation has incurred more than 40 CFIT accidents at the cost of morethan 2,000 lives. Perhaps the most emotional issue for the public, though, is midair collision(MAC). Close encounters between USAF aircraft and civilian airliners in the Northeast receivedmuch notice. The apparent collision between a C-141 and a German Air Force aircraft off thecoast of Namibia also has been widely reported. Modern technology has matured to the pointwhere CFIT and MAC need never occur. The issues are cost and implementation method.----------------------------------------------Regardless, I can go on with case after case,.........it's a sideline of my existence, I guess...L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post

You will only be able to obtain your PPL with steam gauges AND hand held maps. Some people think that the sim is the bees knees but you will find that real flying is really very very different. Your attitude to your task in hand will be so focussed you may even end up with a headache until you get used to it.If you want to go on eventually to ATPL the road is long and hard and enormously expensive unless you are sponsered by an airline or you can get into a University Air Squadron.I got my licence in 1987 and then luckily went on to get my ATPL with BOAC later BAThe other question you need to ask is a personal one:-Q.Is flying better than sex?A. If it less than equal then you are not of the right stuff!!vololiberista

Share this post


Link to post
You will only be able to obtain your PPL with steam gauges AND hand held maps.
The author of this thread, with the original question is from California, in the USA. Garmin 1000's come standard on today's Cessna training aircraft. Diamond has them, and so do numerous others. In other words, you can get your PPL with "glass" (as I don't know all the regs in other countrys. But you'd need the maps too (but maybe not, as there are paperless rules). BTW--- I bought one of the first decent Garmin aviation GPSs. It was a moving map, but very simple by todays standards. It was 1993. Before that, it was pure steam. I do carry up to date "paper" sectionals all the time.L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
I'd like to see them required. In the meantime, handhelds can be rather cheap. We don't have to learn to fly without them. And...........in terms of safety, the bare basics always haven't worked out........have they? Complacency & loss of situational awareness have took their toll.L.Adamson
Neither have all the moving maps worked either. Flying just published another story about somebody who nearly crashed a plane despite their brightly lit GPS moving map in their latest issue. The moral of that story and of all other stories is that you must learn to competently use the equipment that you have, whether it be a sectional chart, vor, loran or gps.Yes, LAdamson, we understand they are great tools. But they are optional tools to be used over and above the basic tools. As a flight instructor, once I've signed you off, how do I know that you are not going to end up flying cross country in a beat up old bare bones taildragger with your trusty handheld dead out of batteries one day? Unless 91.205 is amended to require a working moving map gps in all planes or I can make an endorsement in your book that restricts you to only fly planes equipped with a working moving map gps, it would be criminally negligent of me to allow you to go on without proving to me that you function just as competently without your moving map gps as you do with it. That is why as a flight instructor, I will risk you pushing me out of the airplane at 3000', and turn off your moving map with a smirk on my face. I do that for your safety and my conscience.

Share this post


Link to post