An Englishman abroad

[Stratocruiser1 134]

I agree with all of the above. The English language has been sorely downgraded. One of my pet peeves is the use of "as per" in sentences like "Fill the tank as per the instructions in the maintenance book." The word "as" should not be there. The sentence should be "Fill the tank per the instructions in the maintenance book." I see this over and over in all kinds of documents.

[Guest jahman]

I'm always amused by these conversations as if english were a static language.All you are trying to do is freeze the language according to the best usage rules in effect at the time you were educated.Suppose for a minute some forum member wormholed his hay into this forum from the England of 1215 (or just pretended like he did): How would he write? Would we even understand all he wrote? Wouldn't we all think the character quaint and funny?So quit moaning about the good old days of correct language useage and recognize language is eveolving, moving past us, we're all just... growing old.Cheers,- jahman.

[bobbyjack 61]

I'm always amused by these conversations as if english were a static language.All you are trying to do is freeze the language according to the best usage rules in effect at the time you were educated.Suppose for a minute some forum member wormholed his hay into this forum from the England of 1215 (or just pretended like he did): How would he write? Would we even understand all he wrote? Wouldn't we all think the character quaint and funny?So quit moaning about the good old days of correct language useage and recognize language is eveolving, moving past us, we're all just... growing old.Cheers,- jahman.

But there is a difference between the language "evolving" and "degrading". And it's not just a matter of taste. For thousands of years the only way we have known about past civilizations is through their written records. Some are letters, diaries, or official documents. I think we need to leave for the future, the best we can. Our friend from 1215 would have a chance at reading out forum, but would not have a chance at text-speak, which is all some kids know (or even want to know).Bob

[Guest jahman]

But there is a difference between the language "evolving" and "degrading".

Indeed, but there is a tendency for the previous generation to term degrading what the next generation terms evolution in most aspects of life, language included. Recall when landline phones first appeared, many families were dead-set against them.

And it's not just a matter of taste. For thousands of years the only way we have known about past civilizations is through their written records. Some are letters, diaries, or official documents. I think we need to leave for the future, the best we can. Our friend from 1215 would have a chance at reading out forum, but would not have a chance at text-speak, which is all some kids know (or even want to know).Bob

Text speak is a case in point: The chip design genius Andy Grove, one of the co-founders of Intel (the company that made simming a viable sport for the masses) used to communicate with his three secretaries (what office assistants weer called back then) almost exclusively via text-speak over email. His secretaries would then interpret his code and polish-off the reply, only presumably because the rest of the company wasn't profficient at text-speak or a uniform standard had yet to evolve.So text-speak is the way of the future (at least for technical/professional aspects) and as teens grow-up text-speak use will continue to expand. What is U2, the name of the famed Irish band formed in 1976 (!), but text-speak? Or the australian rock band INXS, from 1977? There was no cell-phone to text-speak on, because cell-phones were only introduced in the U.S. in 1983 (in the form od the two pound cell-bricks in the U.S. in 1983 six years after U2 and INXS appeared!, And Q Codes, a form of primal text-speak, have been used to speed radio communication of all kinds as early as 1913.Also worth mentioning is the use of OTOH, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, ROTFL, RTFM, etc. right in Avsim other than text-speak?What you are seeing with text-speak is really none other than an exponential growth curve where in the beginning growth seems negligible, then there's some sort of inflexion point after which growth is explosive (the point we're at now.)Cheers,- jahman.

[Captain_Barfbag 31]

" For many students, the only "skills" of English composition that they come away with is how to use the toolset that Microsoft provides."Heh. Microsoft's toolset wouldn't catch, "Sniffer dogs were sent in to check all pubic areas for explosive devices" though.

And, despite the fact that it is their primary mission, the TSA wouldn't detect it either.

[bobbyjack 61]

Indeed, but there is a tendency for the previous generation to term degrading what the next generation terms evolution in most aspects of life, language included. Recall when landline phones first appeared, many families were dead-set against them.Text speak is a case in point: The chip design genius Andy Grove, one of the co-founders of Intel (the company that made simming a viable sport for the masses) used to communicate with his three secretaries (what office assistants weer called back then) almost exclusively via text-speak over email. His secretaries would then interpret his code and polish-off the reply, only presumably because the rest of the company wasn't profficient at text-speak or a uniform standard had yet to evolve.So text-speak is the way of the future (at least for technical/professional aspects) and as teens grow-up text-speak use will continue to expand. What is U2, the name of the famed Irish band formed in 1976 (!), but text-speak? Or the australian rock band INXS, from 1977? There was no cell-phone to text-speak on, because cell-phones were only introduced in the U.S. in 1983 (in the form od the two pound cell-bricks in the U.S. in 1983 six years after U2 and INXS appeared!, And Q Codes, a form of primal text-speak, have been used to speed radio communication of all kinds as early as 1913.Also worth mentioning is the use of OTOH, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, ROTFL, RTFM, etc. right in Avsim other than text-speak?What you are seeing with text-speak is really none other than an exponential growth curve where in the beginning growth seems negligible, then there's some sort of inflexion point after which growth is explosive (the point we're at now.)Cheers,- jahman.

While I'll admit to being an old (insert word of choice here), I am hardly opposed to change. BUT, I can not see text-speak as anything more than slang. Just as jive-speak, or hood-speak, or any other "speak". And while many slang expressions make it into general use, they are not often taken seriously. When was the last time someone in the "Mainstream(what ever that is)" today said "Daddy-O" or dance the Twist, or (if your under 25)even seen a 45 rpm record? All "waves of the future". U2 was also the name of a spy plane. Just because one is a "genius", does not make one an expert in the English language. Wasn't it Einstein that couldn't spell?Text-speak may be useful but is no more the wave of the future than whatever the current popular music. We can talk about music if you want, but I think that is for a different forum.Bob

[momtchil 32]

Indeed, but there is a tendency for the previous generation to term degrading what the next generation terms evolution in most aspects of life, language included. Recall when landline phones first appeared, many families were dead-set against them.Text speak is a case in point: The chip design genius Andy Grove, one of the co-founders of Intel (the company that made simming a viable sport for the masses) used to communicate with his three secretaries (what office assistants weer called back then) almost exclusively via text-speak over email. His secretaries would then interpret his code and polish-off the reply, only presumably because the rest of the company wasn't profficient at text-speak or a uniform standard had yet to evolve.So text-speak is the way of the future (at least for technical/professional aspects) and as teens grow-up text-speak use will continue to expand. What is U2, the name of the famed Irish band formed in 1976 (!), but text-speak? Or the australian rock band INXS, from 1977? There was no cell-phone to text-speak on, because cell-phones were only introduced in the U.S. in 1983 (in the form od the two pound cell-bricks in the U.S. in 1983 six years after U2 and INXS appeared!, And Q Codes, a form of primal text-speak, have been used to speed radio communication of all kinds as early as 1913.Also worth mentioning is the use of OTOH, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, ROTFL, RTFM, etc. right in Avsim other than text-speak?What you are seeing with text-speak is really none other than an exponential growth curve where in the beginning growth seems negligible, then there's some sort of inflexion point after which growth is explosive (the point we're at now.)Cheers,- jahman.

I'm not really crazy about 'txt speak' and I'm not old. In the end it is just another fad that will be replaced by something else in the future, as has been the case with other such things in the past. It is popular and does have its uses, so the more widespread and useful aspects will remain with us after it slowly goes out of fashion - again this situation is similar to what has happened in the past with numerous fashionable (at the time) 'speak' types. However to claim TXT speak is the sole way of the future is incorrect. I don't want to communicate with other people in txt speak all the time (even only for technical/professional aspects) - that will get on my nerves, and would be very limiting for a wide variety of situations. Languages do evolve, but text speak by itself is not the future.The main reason for the popularity of text speak in the first place is SMS and mobile phones (subsequently started to be used on the Internet too) - it was simply to cope with the limits in the mobile phones for typing in text to send. Its a faster way to send written messages and people are taking advantage of it when they need to do so - that's all. Its not really a language in its own right.Also what makes you think English txt speak will be the major way of the future - on the planet, for example, the people who speak Mandarin are considerably more than English speakers. There's also Spanish, Bengali, Hindi, Russian, French, German, etc... None of the other languages can just be dismissed.

[january 19]

I wonder how Text Speak would be received in a written submission to the Supreme Court?I have no great problem with it for electronic communication- but in a written communication- especially one that is to be archived and read and understood by future generations, text speak just doesn't work.English- GOOD English will survive. And those who never learn to use it, may find their career opportunities somewhat limited. We tend to be judged by the company we keep! AR

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

People have been hacking away at the English language for centuries. The USA started to change it by dropping the 'u' out of words and respelling things like Colour - Color, Centre - Center, etc etc etc.Go to the deep south USA, the Australian Outback, the South African Interior, Jamaica, or Newfoundland and you will see very unique versions of the English language, as well travel around Ireland and the UK and their are many different accents as well.So kids today are hacking it up even more. But no wonder when cellular companies are charging them to text by the letter, so they are abbreviating to lower their monthly cellular bills. I say good on them. If they were to text in perfect English as you propose then their cell phone bills would go up by 30%......Think about it that way.

[RyanB 0]

Those damn Englishmen and Americans are hacking up the Latin language. Ain't they funny?"O quam cito transit gloria mundi" :(

[Dave Morgan 68]

With regard to our childrens' friends' language, I have to ask you and myself where we went wrong.Incidentally, thank you for introducing my friend and me to good grammar. He and I think it's wonderful that some can still use the language correctly....And I just qualified as an articulated lorry driver but find I still can't put together a proper sentence. Lol. I blame Radio 1....Interestingly, mediaeval and modern Welsh are not very different. One can easily be read by a speaker of the other as long as differences in spelling are overlooked. Ultra-modern Welsh, however, is being diluted by lexicographers who insist on a word-for-word translation from English into Welsh. Thus 'ceremony' is given as 'seremoni' rather than 'defod' (which appears to mean only 'ritual') and 'zero' is translated as 'sero' rather than 'dim' (which is now strictly none or nought). Temporary traffic signs in Wales show rubbish like 'Ciwiau yn bosibl' (Ciw = queue??, posibl = possible???) whereas a better translation would be 'Tagfeydd yn debygol' (tagfeydd = constrictions = bottlenecks) which reads as 'bottlenecks likely'.It can't be helped. Welcome to the new generation.

[Crewecut 1]

Oh, I love a healthy rant over deteriorating language. Same is true about Danish. It's (no offence) becoming half English now, especially in commercials and advertizing. Being half English half Danish I can't help myself using English terms whenever I feel they express my meaning more properly. But in writing it becomes so corny.But there's also improper grammar in Danish all the time, even in the newspaper and the news on TV. And once it's aired it's how everyone says it.In the words of Blackadder the 3rd, I hope the change in the English language won't cause any "contrafibularities" :( Bjorn

[january 19]

Those damn Englishmen and Americans are hacking up the Latin language. Ain't they funny?"O quam cito transit gloria mundi" :(

Translating from my high school Latin (some 65 years ago, so now a bit rusty)-"Oh, what is the schedule for Gloria to drive the city bus on Mondays?"AR

[Tim_Sims 0]

With regard to our childrens' friends' language, I have to ask you and myself where we went wrong.Interestingly, mediaeval and modern Welsh are not very different. One can easily be read by a speaker of the other as long as differences in spelling are overlooked. Ultra-modern Welsh, however, is being diluted by lexicographers who insist on a word-for-word translation from English into Welsh. Thus 'ceremony' is given as 'seremoni' rather than 'defod' (which appears to mean only 'ritual') and 'zero' is translated as 'sero' rather than 'dim' (which is now strictly none or nought). Temporary traffic signs in Wales show rubbish like 'Ciwiau yn bosibl' (Ciw = queue??, posibl = possible???) whereas a better translation would be 'Tagfeydd yn debygol' (tagfeydd = constrictions = bottlenecks) which reads as 'bottlenecks likely'.It can't be helped. Welcome to the new generation.

Siaradwr Cymraeg arall ar y fforwm Avsim - da iawn!Cuts both ways though. A friend of mine who works in an organisation which is about 50/50 Welsh- and English-speaking recently received an email from their HR department that said in both languages that because of budget cuts no-one would get a pay rise this year. They used the strictly correct Welsh word codiad for pay rise. Trouble is that codiad also means, how can I put it, a state of male arousal. As he said, that seemed a bit harsh, and unlikely to save any money. It's the same in France too. Even with their militant defence of language purity pretty much every billboard or TV advert has some English on it somewhere. And if you think that standards of grammar are bad in English-speaking countries, then "ici les special offers" is a lot worse.

[Dave Morgan 68]

http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/2814235.stmhttp://www.telegraph...-shorthand.htmlkthxbai (which, on first receipt, I translated as 'Kiss the hot cross bun and icing'...)