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kiwiflyer45

AI problem Cloud9 KDCA

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HiI am posting on here rather than the FSDT forum as they no longer provide tech support for older Cloud9 products. I have their excellent KDCA Ronald Reagan Airport but there's a problem with AI. All traffic is directed to a single runway 01/19 which causes horrendous backups of traffic on the ground and interminable waits for take off clearance. So I changed the AFCAD file using AFX so that it would use 01/19 for takeoffs and 04/22 for landings but although the file is correctly configured, the AI traffic are still directed to 01/19 just as if I hadn't changed a thing. It does not appear to be an ADE file - the original AF2 file is in the KDCA scenery folder and that's the one I've modified. I have checked for duplicates and there are none... All I'm trying to do is close 01/19 for landings and close 04/22 for take offs, though if someone had a "crosswind technique" afcad for it that would be even better. Any suggestions? :( CheersIan

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As you seem to have far more experience than I am,with regards airports and designating AI,etc,I'd be grateful if you could kindly tell me how you looked for duplicates as I tried using a program called Airport Scanner and it did nothing.I still have some weird behaviour at Add-on airports as I can see the original airport underneath.Pa,eh? Beautiful place.Not anywhere near State College?Thanks in advance

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You have got it correct that both ends of a runway must be the same on permissions for them to be restricted. You'll have to add crosswind pseudo runways so both are active for AI assignment.I don't know if AFX has a tool for that but ADE9 freeware has runway list properties and a tool that make it easier. It might pay to learn a bit about it. It also appears to edit AFX files so you will not have to start over.http://www.airportdesigneditor.co.uk/ is the home page and the link will take you to the download site for the manuals, tutorials, and application.I checked a couple of libraries but could not find anything for Cloud 9's DCA with the crosswind technique. On flightsim there were some for default and Ansari's FS8 version which is stated to work OK in FS9.It look like a do-it-yourself project.If you want to use AFX you need a tutorial and can use that. Look for author jim vile, j. vile, etc.What I recommend you do is download the ADE9 User Guide and go to section 11.12. It describes the technique and also has this link regarding crosswind runways in this folder:http://www.scruffyduck.org.uk/filemanager/navega.php?PHPSESSID=9136c43087c97817a8e2c0ea4ae8e6c1&dir=.%2FTutorials%2FAirport%20Designwhich is Jim Vile's tutorial.If you want to use ADE9 to modify your AFX afd file that you have been modifying you can import the file by choosing to load the airport direct from bgl and navigate to that AFX file. Otherwise you can modify the Cloud 9 version loading it the same way and reset the runway privileges as you have already done.ADE for afd purposes has a similar GUI to AFCAD but works with lists better to change you runway properties. In ADE you can save your changes to a project you create so you can easily go back to make changes. You then compile the BGL and if no fatal errors you can try it. Sometimes you'll get a warning and hovering over it will explain the error.Read the two docs and either way I think you'll be game to try it. The ADE manual does have the screen shots to accomplish this.

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As you seem to have far more experience than I am,with regards airports and designating AI,etc,I'd be grateful if you could kindly tell me how you looked for duplicates as I tried using a program called Airport Scanner and it did nothing.I still have some weird behaviour at Add-on airports as I can see the original airport underneath.Pa,eh? Beautiful place.Not anywhere near State College?Thanks in advance
Hi RickI use a freeware program called ScanAFD which does a pretty thorough job of searching for duplicates and has never let me down. I am about two hours from State College - I live outside of Philadelphia not far from Valley Forge. It's a beautiful area with many historic sites and farms that go back to pre-revolutionary times - nothing compared to the depth of history you have in the UK but impressive for an ex-Pat Kiwi like myself where nothing is much over a hundred years old.CheersIan

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You have got it correct that both ends of a runway must be the same on permissions for them to be restricted. You'll have to add crosswind pseudo runways so both are active for AI assignment.I don't know if AFX has a tool for that but ADE9 freeware has runway list properties and a tool that make it easier. It might pay to learn a bit about it. It also appears to edit AFX files so you will not have to start over.http://www.airportdesigneditor.co.uk/ is the home page and the link will take you to the download site for the manuals, tutorials, and application.I checked a couple of libraries but could not find anything for Cloud 9's DCA with the crosswind technique. On flightsim there were some for default and Ansari's FS8 version which is stated to work OK in FS9.It look like a do-it-yourself project.If you want to use AFX you need a tutorial and can use that. Look for author jim vile, j. vile, etc.What I recommend you do is download the ADE9 User Guide and go to section 11.12. It describes the technique and also has this link regarding crosswind runways in this folder:http://www.scruffyduck.org.uk/filemanager/navega.php?PHPSESSID=9136c43087c97817a8e2c0ea4ae8e6c1&dir=.%2FTutorials%2FAirport%20Designwhich is Jim Vile's tutorial.If you want to use ADE9 to modify your AFX afd file that you have been modifying you can import the file by choosing to load the airport direct from bgl and navigate to that AFX file. Otherwise you can modify the Cloud 9 version loading it the same way and reset the runway privileges as you have already done.ADE for afd purposes has a similar GUI to AFCAD but works with lists better to change you runway properties. In ADE you can save your changes to a project you create so you can easily go back to make changes. You then compile the BGL and if no fatal errors you can try it. Sometimes you'll get a warning and hovering over it will explain the error.Read the two docs and either way I think you'll be game to try it. The ADE manual does have the screen shots to accomplish this.
Hi RonI have modified a number of airports using AFX and usually what I did works - it's not as good as the cross-wind technique but it will normally force AI to use one runway for landing and another for take-offs which really helps traffic flow. I did try to do a cross-wind technique AFCAD a long time ago but after a lot of time invested, it didn't work for me! :( I have heard great things about ADE9 as THE tool to use but the first time I looked at it I was a bit intimidated - and AFX is very intuitive and easy to use. But I will check it out again. I'm just really puzzled that what appears to be a normal AF2 file, which I have been able to modify in a way that has worked with dozens of other sceneries, seems to be over-ridden by some other file. If I find a solution I'll post it here so others can read it - in the meantime I'll go take a look at ADE9 and see if I can motivate myself to learn to use it.ThanksIan

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Hi RickI use a freeware program called ScanAFD which does a pretty thorough job of searching for duplicates and has never let me down. I am about two hours from State College - I live outside of Philadelphia not far from Valley Forge. It's a beautiful area with many historic sites and farms that go back to pre-revolutionary times - nothing compared to the depth of history you have in the UK but impressive for an ex-Pat Kiwi like myself where nothing is much over a hundred years old.CheersIan
Hi Ian,Thank you for that info.Will give that ScanAFD a try.Valley Forge,aah, what memories.I know it well as I do Philly.Sure do miss the beautiful scenery in and around Pa. Miss the Amish farms and their craft fairs.But then South Island is a beautiful place too,specially around Queenstown.Ours is Old World history,yours is New World.Regards

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I am posting on here rather than the FSDT forum as they no longer provide tech support for older Cloud9 products.
I don't know why you wrote this, you have posted this on our forum yesterday at 11:38 PM ( *our* time ):http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4399.0And got a reply today at 08:24 AM, which of course contained very similar suggestions to those discussed here. Sorry, for not being able to offer support while sleeping...

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HiI am posting on here rather than the FSDT forum as they no longer provide tech support for older Cloud9 productsIan
Really? You ask FSDT for advice on June 21 2011 at 11:38:05 PM and get a reply on 22 june 2011 at 08:24:47 AM. That's all of 8 hours 46 minutes later. Don't you think an apology is in order for your misleading post?

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Hi IanThat ScanAFD is only useful for FS9. I had wanted one for FSX. Cannot seem to find an updated version of ScanAFD.Thanks all the same.

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Hi IanThat ScanAFD is only useful for FS9. I had wanted one for FSX. Cannot seem to find an updated version of ScanAFD.Thanks all the same.
Note that you are posting in the FS9 forum... you might try the fSX forum and see what's being used, since there is no updated ScanAFD.DJ

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Note that you are posting in the FS9 forum... you might try the fSX forum and see what's being used, since there is no updated ScanAFD.DJ
I had originally thought the OP was referring to a global way of finding duplicate sceneries, irrespective of whether it related to FS9/FSX which is why his post caught my eye,hence my question to him all the time fully aware that this was posted in the FS9 Forum.

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For FS9 to consider runways parallel a limit of about seven degrees between headings determines if both can be active. Therefore the crosswind technique implements pseudo runways between the runways you want to have simultaneously active that are only within that seven degree limit. The runways are short and of minimal width so they are not apparent visually and are moved far outside the airport boundary. I noted that in the ADE manual it mentioned they were moved "somewhere near the North Pole". These runways have certain conditions regarding start points, etc.Unless AFX has a tool to accomplish this, you might find the almost completely automated tool for creating crosswind runways in ADE much faster.AFCAD had certain limits because it was designed before MS released the relevant SDKs for AI and scenery and they were not all inclusive. Some assumptions were incorrect on AI operation such as runway priorities. In other areas it was not aware of certain properties that were designed in by developers using more advanced tools to work around FS limitations and saving a modified AFCAD file based on a developer's afd file (airport facilities design) might strip out or corrupt some of that developer's design objects. The AFCAD designer and Project AI team did a good job based on AI observation essentially a form of reverse engineering.Anyway if you decide to use the crosswind technique ADE9 should reduce the time you invested in trying it with AFCAD. In addition ADE9 might disclose certain properties Cloud 9 designed in if they went beyond using AFCAD to design the afd type file.It is known for sure that FS9 will not support more than one active runway separated in heading by more than seven degrees so if you want AI and your own aircraft to use different runways simultaneously that criteria must be met.In addition to all this there is a condition that if the wind components exceed certain strong values AI might use a runway scheduled for take-off only as a landing runway.As a last suggestion run in AFX or ADE9 the fault finder tool to see if there are any problems.

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Hi Ian,Thank you for that info.Will give that ScanAFD a try.Valley Forge,aah, what memories.I know it well as I do Philly.Sure do miss the beautiful scenery in and around Pa. Miss the Amish farms and their craft fairs.But then South Island is a beautiful place too,specially around Queenstown.Ours is Old World history,yours is New World.Regards
I used to fly for Mount Cook Airlines and have spent many wonderful years in Queenstown. It is a magical place!

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I don't know why you wrote this, you have posted this on our forum yesterday at 11:38 PM ( *our* time ):http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4399.0And got a reply today at 08:24 AM, which of course contained very similar suggestions to those discussed here. Sorry, for not being able to offer support while sleeping...
No offense was intended Umberto nor was I being impatient. I have always been a strong supporter of you and the work you do as you will see elsewhere on this forum as well as by my purchases of your products. I posted on your forum but really did not expect a reply, as you could see by re-reading my post. I did not expect you to provide technical support for an old product that was not even released by your company. So I chose to post here as well in the hope that someone would be able to help. I appreciate that you did reply and will log on right now and read what you said.

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Really? You ask FSDT for advice on June 21 2011 at 11:38:05 PM and get a reply on 22 june 2011 at 08:24:47 AM. That's all of 8 hours 46 minutes later. Don't you think an apology is in order for your misleading post?
Please read what I posted above. You might want to be a little less quick on the trigger in making accusations. I did not post originally on the FSDT forum for the very reason I stated - it is an old product (which I described as "excellent") for which I did not expect them to provide support. Then I decided to post there anyway, while explaining in my post that I didn't expect technical support but thought another user might be able to help.I owe no apology whatsover and you might want to think a lot more carefully next time before you accuse someone of a "misleading post." I resent the implication of that and if you look through this forum you will see that I am not in the habit of making "misleading posts" nor of attacking other people for what they posted....
For FS9 to consider runways parallel a limit of about seven degrees between headings determines if both can be active. Therefore the crosswind technique implements pseudo runways between the runways you want to have simultaneously active that are only within that seven degree limit. The runways are short and of minimal width so they are not apparent visually and are moved far outside the airport boundary. I noted that in the ADE manual it mentioned they were moved "somewhere near the North Pole". These runways have certain conditions regarding start points, etc.Unless AFX has a tool to accomplish this, you might find the almost completely automated tool for creating crosswind runways in ADE much faster.AFCAD had certain limits because it was designed before MS released the relevant SDKs for AI and scenery and they were not all inclusive. Some assumptions were incorrect on AI operation such as runway priorities. In other areas it was not aware of certain properties that were designed in by developers using more advanced tools to work around FS limitations and saving a modified AFCAD file based on a developer's afd file (airport facilities design) might strip out or corrupt some of that developer's design objects. The AFCAD designer and Project AI team did a good job based on AI observation essentially a form of reverse engineering.Anyway if you decide to use the crosswind technique ADE9 should reduce the time you invested in trying it with AFCAD. In addition ADE9 might disclose certain properties Cloud 9 designed in if they went beyond using AFCAD to design the afd type file.It is known for sure that FS9 will not support more than one active runway separated in heading by more than seven degrees so if you want AI and your own aircraft to use different runways simultaneously that criteria must be met.In addition to all this there is a condition that if the wind components exceed certain strong values AI might use a runway scheduled for take-off only as a landing runway.As a last suggestion run in AFX or ADE9 the fault finder tool to see if there are any problems.
Thanks so much Ron for the help and the time and trouble you have taken to assist. I'll let you know how it turns out. :(

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Please read what I posted above. You might want to be a little less quick on the trigger in making accusations. I did not post originally on the FSDT forum for the very reason I stated - it is an old product (which I described as "excellent") for which I did not expect them to provide support. Then I decided to post there anyway, while explaining in my post that I didn't expect technical support but thought another user might be able to help.I owe no apology whatsover and you might want to think a lot more carefully next time before you accuse someone of a "misleading post." I resent the implication of that and if you look through this forum you will see that I am not in the habit of making "misleading posts" nor of attacking other people for what they posted....
You wrote "I am posting on here rather than the FSDT forum as they no longer provide tech support for older Cloud9 products."Isnt it misleading to say that they no longer provide support for older products when they do?

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You wrote "I am posting on here rather than the FSDT forum as they no longer provide tech support for older Cloud9 products."Isnt it misleading to say that they no longer provide support for older products when they do?
Pal - I don't know what your problem is but when I need a lesson in semantics or ethics, I'll ask someone else. This is supposed to be a flight simulation site for those of us who enjoy the hobby and courteous discussion with other hobbyists. Just for your information, I posted on the FSDT site AFTER I posted on here because I decided that maybe one of the users on there might already have a solution - I had no expectation of FSDT technical support being available for an old product released by another company. I was mistaken in that - something for which Umberto deserves praise for going "above and beyond." I was mistaken - not "misleading." But frankly it's really none of your d--n business anyway. I suggest you find another topic to harp on... Or better still, another forum to troll on! End of discussion....

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Before this thread gets locked down --For FSX Airport Scanner does what ScanAFD does for FS9.I don't think closing runways for takeoff or landing actually closes them. It just changes the scoring used in runway selection logic, but I think other things still are taken account of, such as approaches and runway length vs aircraft engine type and empty weight.scott s..

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The problem with ScanAFD is that you can get a false positive in that multiple afd layers can properly exist for the same scenery if meeting certain rules. I use AFCAD 221 to search for and examine layers noting where runway layout conflicts exist. In other words, if more than one layer besides stock default has similar objects (runways, taxiways, parking) then I note the file path of each layer. Layers that seem to show almost nothing in the display are normally special objects sometimes to get around FS9 limitations and may be designed in a utility more comprehensive than AFCAD. If the afd files reside in the same add-on folder then I give those priority over others in deciding if a conflict exists.(As stated in another post in this thread I no longer use AFCAD to modify and save files due to certain early assumptions made in its design.) It does make a good search and display tool for determining conflicts.Some traffic programs install their own afcad type files usually designed around default stock. If you have an add-on scenery with afd files then most likely the one installed by the traffic application is in conflict with the add-on.

Hi RickI use a freeware program called ScanAFD which does a pretty thorough job of searching for duplicates and has never let me down. I am about two hours from State College - I live outside of Philadelphia not far from Valley Forge. It's a beautiful area with many historic sites and farms that go back to pre-revolutionary times - nothing compared to the depth of history you have in the UK but impressive for an ex-Pat Kiwi like myself where nothing is much over a hundred years old.CheersIan

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HiI am posting on here rather than the FSDT forum as they no longer provide tech support for older Cloud9 products. I have their excellent KDCA Ronald Reagan Airport but there's a problem with AI. All traffic is directed to a single runway 01/19 which causes horrendous backups of traffic on the ground and interminable waits for take off clearance. So I changed the AFCAD file using AFX so that it would use 01/19 for takeoffs and 04/22 for landings but although the file is correctly configured, the AI traffic are still directed to 01/19 just as if I hadn't changed a thing. It does not appear to be an ADE file - the original AF2 file is in the KDCA scenery folder and that's the one I've modified. I have checked for duplicates and there are none... All I'm trying to do is close 01/19 for landings and close 04/22 for take offs, though if someone had a "crosswind technique" afcad for it that would be even better. Any suggestions? :( CheersIan
IanLike Scott says there is a score for runway selection. If you crosswind 04/22 to 01/19 that will not help achieve the goal you are looking for with the Jet aircraft. The runway selection for jet aircraft when more then 1 runway is active is a formula.Runway 01/19 will always be the prefered takeoff/landing runway because1. It is the longest runway2. It has a ILS and a LDA approach code in the database3. The runway is longer then 6500 ft4. Runway 01 is the prefered landing runway with the highest score since it has the ILS approach code for clear weather landings5. Runway 04/22 at less then 5000 ft when xwinded will only accept turbo props and smaller type aircraftSome of the scoring in the XML compiled to bgl processed by the .dll looks like thisScore = 0If runway length > 70% of longest runway at airport -> Score += 50Score += tailwind or headwind (tailwind < 0 and headwind > 0)If (unknown 'runway group' flag) Score += 10Score = crosswind <<<<<<<<------------------------------------ add 100 points if my CW technique is in useIf (runway landing==yes) -> Score += 100If (runway takeoff==yes) -> Score += 100once the score is totaled then FS multiplies by 10000Now we have to factor in that Jet Aircraft as per the .air file has additional scoring code. FS also looks at the Empty Weight value in the aircraft.cfg file If no empty weights specified in the .cfg: returns 5000ftElse:value = ((empty_weight pounds - 10000) * 2000 / 90000 ) + 5000if ( value > 7000 ) return 7000if ( value < 5000 ) return 5000else return value Jets are most complicated based on EW vs runway lengthRunway 01/19 = 6875 ft (FS9 stock)Runway 04/22 = 4914 ft (FS9 stock)Since the longest runway at KDCA is 01/19 then ATC will vector all Jets to use that runway. Runway 04/22 will be used if you crosswind but ATC will vector Turbo Props and smaller type aircraft to use that runway. FS coded taxiways and runways with weight restriction code in the XML compiled to a bgl. However like many other parts of FS coding this weight restriction was not made available. The runway weight restriction code can be activated if the runways are parallel or made to think they are parallel with the Crosswind Runway Technique.jim

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IanLike Scott says there is a score for runway selection. If you crosswind 04/22 to 01/19 that will not help achieve the goal you are looking for with the Jet aircraft. The runway selection for jet aircraft when more then 1 runway is active is a formula.Runway 01/19 will always be the prefered takeoff/landing runway because1. It is the longest runway2. It has a ILS and a LDA approach code in the database3. The runway is longer then 6500 ft4. Runway 01 is the prefered landing runway with the highest score since it has the ILS approach code for clear weather landings5. Runway 04/22 at less then 5000 ft when xwinded will only accept turbo props and smaller type aircraftSome of the scoring in the XML compiled to bgl processed by the .dll looks like thisScore = 0If runway length > 70% of longest runway at airport -> Score += 50Score += tailwind or headwind (tailwind < 0 and headwind > 0)If (unknown 'runway group' flag) Score += 10Score = crosswind <<<<<<<<------------------------------------ add 100 points if my CW technique is in useIf (runway landing==yes) -> Score += 100If (runway takeoff==yes) -> Score += 100once the score is totaled then FS multiplies by 10000Now we have to factor in that Jet Aircraft as per the .air file has additional scoring code. FS also looks at the Empty Weight value in the aircraft.cfg file If no empty weights specified in the .cfg: returns 5000ftElse:value = ((empty_weight pounds - 10000) * 2000 / 90000 ) + 5000if ( value > 7000 ) return 7000if ( value < 5000 ) return 5000else return value Jets are most complicated based on EW vs runway lengthRunway 01/19 = 6875 ft (FS9 stock)Runway 04/22 = 4914 ft (FS9 stock)Since the longest runway at KDCA is 01/19 then ATC will vector all Jets to use that runway. Runway 04/22 will be used if you crosswind but ATC will vector Turbo Props and smaller type aircraft to use that runway. FS coded taxiways and runways with weight restriction code in the XML compiled to a bgl. However like many other parts of FS coding this weight restriction was not made available. The runway weight restriction code can be activated if the runways are parallel or made to think they are parallel with the Crosswind Runway Technique.jim
Thank you so much Jim. As you are the acknowledged expert on this topic, I will now consider my question thoroughly answered and thank you, and others, for taking the time to give such full explanations. I will continue to enjoy this outstanding scenery with all it's unique features even though it's an older product - and just blame the traffic holdups on the politicians over on "the hill" nearby! LOL

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Jim, thank you for your explanation. I could never understand the parallel - crosswind - whatever details when reviewing a file in AFCAD, and this is the best explanation I have ever read.Thanks, again.Chuck

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