I think criticism of freeware, public or private, should just be ignored. If you see a post attacking a freeware developer, I think it best to just post another topic giving praise and ignore the former entirely.As for payware, I have sent emails giving additional thanks for a product; but in general, the act of purchasing should be enough thanks - anything beyond that should be considered icing on the cake, as it were.But people do need a place to go to comlain/gripe/whatever. I have seen some companies (not restricted to our hobby) be quite arrogant and dismissive to _paying_customers'_ questions/complaints. I know that there is a desire to keep certain issues on the "down low" to protect sales; but word will get around somehow, someway. Better that it is dealt with openly (IMO). I think that the "General Discussion" forum is too broad. A new, more technical/troubleshooting forum may be in order (one that strictly does not allow complaints).And maybe a special flag/icon could be placed on "questionable" threads by the moderators of the general forum. That way one could avoid threads that will likely get your temper flaring if you choose.I stopped reading the forum for a few months; because I had lost my temper and posted angrily in a general response to the "FS9 sucks", "where the hell is my free stuff?" and "gimme, gimme, gimme" threads. Sometimes it is good to stay away from any forums and just FLY for a while...I can certainly understand people wanting to get out of the hobby. But it shoudn't be because of the people who get on your nerves.I've pretty much made a concious decision that I will NOT purchase the next version of MSFS, unless it more than a couple years away from now when it is released...<$0.02, cha-ching>

This problem is not confined to this forum,to forums generally or even to the Internet.It is a problem which encompasses virtually the whole of daily life.The "satisfied" majority (with reference to any situation) are seldom vocal about their satisfaction with things - be it a product,environmental issue or whatever.The vocal minority however ,make themselves heard above all others and at a volume out of all proportion to their numbers.EG: Anti airport protesters,anti- road expansion etc etc etc.No matter what is said and done,the "disatisfied"minority always have and always will make more noise "satisfied" majority.May be we're complacent when things are OK.One thing I do know after a 40 years of dealing with the public- the situation isn't going to change.Dave

I have also often asked myself, what has become of this community ? It IS still there, just no longer in public fora. The tone gets sharper and sharper everywhere, not only here at AVSIM.Rude users you have in every fora, be it hobby, political or whatever type of places where users can more or less anonymously post. Hey, that is "welcome to the real world" !! You either have to take it or leave it if you run a forum or business. As a payware developers, you have no longer the freeware relation you might have had earlier. It's down to a pure seller-customer relation. Again take it or leave it.Some years ago we have been happy to get maybe one fine freeware plane a month. And now AVSIM alone has 40000 files in the library, so every freeware author cannot get the attention anymore he got some years ago and has to live with that (as much I regret it).But always the users are blamed, why ? Where is the border between rude or just frustrated users, that bought something from their hard earned money and the product didn't fulfill their expectation. Why blame users only ? Do developers with unfinished releases, mouthful advertisements (100% realism ...) and cheap shots not also contribute to all this ? Those that run fora, do they always find the fine balance between censoring rude messages and messages from just frustrated users ?AVSIM blames users, users blame AVSIM. Developer blames user. User blames developer. Always the easy way ?What about everyone grabs on his own nose instead ?We are more or less all sitting in the same boat, aren't we ?Mike

tom great post :) i think as each year i have been involed this gets worst and worst i know as a texture artist i love a ocasional thank you email or post sometimes i think some posts get misunderstood becuase of some's language barriers but trolling and flaming seems always to be on the rise i love the forums here cause the mods are usually quick to react i also wonder if a site like this would be willing to post some honest good reviews of paywear if this would stop some of the trolling i hardly ever see any reviews besides bears :) which are great shane

Ken,>respond to them. If you set up a forum where posts are>removed, and all you get is complaints with no arguments from>opposing views, it will quickly die since these users will not>get any satisfaction or ego stroking.Exactly my point - if they (the PDs :-) ) find that there posts won't live long in the main forums, and that they'll live an even shorter life in the Complainers forum, maybe they'll get the message that those types of posts are not wanted.>posts. If these posts are moved, then you won't see (I know I>would never visit the complainers forum except to dole out>brutal punishment ;-) ) opposing views.I'm all for opposing views. I just want them presented in a professional manner. I don't mind ###### people saying that they're having considerable issues with any add-on, freeware or payware. I just want them to be cordial while doing it.>However it is very hard to just ignore these posts I know.Sigh...yep.Thanks,

Whoa- it isn't just this community- have a look outside, it's the WHOLE WORLD my friend! Get used to it this is life and we must put up with the "others". Don't get me wrong- this is YOUR community- you created it and run it daily. So why not make every forum post "manager approved" before allowing to post? uhh- oh yah I guess that would be too much becuase there's like 5000 posts or more per hour or something right? lol.Not sure what to do to help remedy this..

I have been a part of flight sim for a long time, and I am tired of reading griping posts. I do however enjoy the posts that may bring up contoversy, but in a critiquing / constructive manner. It is alright to post opinions, because that is just what they are. We do not have to agree or disagree. What I don't like is when individuals make personal attacks against others. Whether it is about freeware, payware, or someone elses view on topics, personal attacks are uncalled for. Flight sim is branching out to more than just the small niche it once was. The FS community is becoming more diverse than ever before. People ranging from 10 - 80 years old enjoying the game and all that it has to offer. Where, I think, it used to be those that had flight experience or had a real knowledge of flight. Now it is reaching out to those that are interested but don't have an understanding of flight, computers etc. The FS community is changing and I think we have to change with it. I guess you could say we are experiencing some growing pains. I hope we can continue to grow together as a community and enjoy all that people have to offer. I know I have enjoyed all the great forums for years, and look forward to seeing how thing progress. I say let the developers do their job which is developing, and let the users constructively critique so that we can keep improving the quality of FS.

Hi Tom,That was interesting food for thought. I have some mixed opinions on this. I can understand what Brent wrote and was feeling, however imho it would be a cold, feezing day in hell before someone drove me out of this hobby. Maybe thats just the way I am. Everybody is different I suppose.In regards to the forums here is a personal experience that could lead to a solution here, you would have to look at it long and hard to see if it would work for Avsim. There was a forum that several drag racing enthusiasts frequented. It was an open forum. It wasn't before long that the "poison dwarfs" came in and really made a shamble of things. What the owner of the site did after conferring with his moderators and several long time members was made registration of real name and valid email address mandatory. No hotmail, yahoo or the like. If you didn't you couldn't join. Period. It wasn't very long before the problems went away.Oh there were still a couple people who would sneak in and try to cause some chaos, but they were quickly dealt with. It became a very pleasant forum, lots of interaction and some very healthy debates.I would also look at what FSD has done to deal with the poison dwarfs. I mean really, would it be such a inconvenience to people if you set it up this way? I think not. You would for certain know who is a dedicated, MATURE, flightsimmer who wants to share with others in this hobby. As a last resort you could even come up with a membership fee if the problem persisted. (but I would think the problems would tend to whittle away before that became necessary)Whatever Avsim decides to do, you have my full support.Andy

Hi Tom, I have two online loves, Flight Sim design and Baseball. I love to talk simming and baseball, but the poison dwarfs/trolls are so bad on the baseball forums its nearly comical. One thing that keeps me on the baseball forums is a nice little button called an "ignore" switch. Everytime you identify a troll you can remove all his posts with the click of a button. Can we do that here? I recieved nothing but praise after the release of our Cessna 195. Not one ugly email. I was surprised. If i found someone bashing our work in public, it would hurt, but it would never, NEVER keep me from doing something that brings me so much joy. Maybe its because of my approach. I make my planes for ME and members of my team. I dont go into a release thinking "everyone will like this plane" I dont care if "you" like it. I like it, and thats all that matters to me. Public release is just my way of giving back to this community. I love to design, I love gmax, and I love reading about people who enjoy my work. There's nothing anyone can say or do to change that. Maybe its the core group that my designs are geared towards. I dont build complex heavies and I think the Bushers are less likely to complain about a missing rivet or something. I would never enter the heavy design arena because of what Mike/ffx and other's are subjected to. Its pathetic... I feel bad for the designers who feel they have no alternative but to quit. I dont fully agree with that, but I can understand.there are some creepy people in this virtual world...joe binka

Hi.I wish I could supply a definitive answer to this problem, but as you and everyone one knows there probably isn

LOL I don't think I could handle approving every post...I would go more insane!

Why not charge an annual fee for using the Avsim forums?Haven't you noticed that, for example, the restaurants which charge high prices very rarely get the riff-raff going in?Most serious flight simulation enthusiasts can afford expensive hardware and various addons so another charge on their bank accounts would not be too hard to bear.Those who just want to compain and cause mayhem would, at least, have to pay to do this and then watch their posts very quickly deleted by the moderators. I don't think they would be very willing to pay for this.I would certainly support a charge system but at the same time I have to say that I am frequenting other forums more and more where, at least for the time being, abuse etc is minimal.David

Maybe part of the solution is for the non-PD posters to just ignore the PD posters. Just resist the temptation to respond, these posters are not just posting their opinions but are also expecting a response. If as a community we can ignore them, they will find somewhere else to get their attention.Failing that, AVSIM would have to become an exclusive club (at least the forums) where there was some additional membership criteria/screening before you could post to the forums. I don't believe this is what AVSIM wants though, so that is probably not going to happen.My 2 cents.Jim

I couldn't agree more with this feeling. I too have not posted as much for the same reasons...try to help someone by suggesting a fix or alternative and, likely or not, some derogatory response will come in to the contrary. And should someone pose an opinion which differs from the dwarfs, well, just stand back and watch the flames come in.This may be a reflection of the current trend in American society whichs seems to be that everyone must follow the party line and those that don't are lamblasted and pillified. Not good! IMHOLarry S.

I just want to say for my part that this is one reason I post pretty rarely here or at flightsim, I just got tired of it. Then again, I do skip over the critical posts there are so many worse things in the world today this is not at the top of my list.