Tom I'd just like to say that this site and these forums are still always, always a breath of fresh air even within the fs community. As far as I can see the schizoids are still a minute few here and always quickly dealt with by Avsim's capable staff. As a regular, mature user with a reasonably cured hide I feel safe yet unfettered here - Thank you.In any field of art, the minute you 'release' the world is upon you for better or worse - a thick skin is not optional. I've always felt that ideally freeware artists, in addition to praise, should be open to respectful, polite criticism so they can improve their craft (most are I note). I just cannot agree with the absolute 'if you can't do better just shut up and say thank you' argument - it's not realistic in any sphere of life. As an amateaur musician I welcome the insight of people who cannot play a note as much as I do that of expert players - both views have value to me.Abuse is something else entirely. Many are capable of just swatting the flies and carrying on but it's perfectly understandable if one simply cannot endure. I resolve to be even more proactive in thanking freeware artists personally for their work - help tip the scales.Payware - Respect every time, praise too BUT I will be very firm when I feel I've not received that which was advertised.regards,Markhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpgXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1024mb/X700pro256

Firstly I'd like to hope I've never come across that way, I always try to be respectful even when a little shall we say opinionated.Secondly and more importantly, I do think it's sad that people like these can drive other people out. I read the forums a lot, and agree there are a lot of gripe posts. That said the only thing we can do as a community is ignore those posts completely, hopefully if they are ignored they will go away.To Brent I would say, if you read this, don't go, it takes a lot more than a few whingeing brats to make me drop my wings. I've not been flying lately, waiting on my new rig before installing 80odd Gb worth of FS again, but I've seen good times and bad, and to be honest if it wasn't for some of the friends I've made through this hobby I really don't know how I would've carried on in real life over the last few months. So ignore them, but if you really can't then best wishes to you mate, whatever you take up instead.

Tom,While I'm entirely sympathetic with you regarding the topic of this discussion, most of this thread -- and the letter it is based on -- seem to have been resurrected from 2003. Why?Since you apparently feel there is a new and compelling need for this topic to be revived, can you please elaborate on your reasons for doing so now? Now as far as a solution goes, if necessary we need to look at a way to ban the troublemakers. Don't you have in place some kind of a 'Three Strikes, You're Out' rule?Best wishes,-Rick

Hello,I know I

>Since you apparently feel there is a new and compelling need>for this topic to be revived, can you please elaborate on your>reasons for doing so now? Rick,Read the entire thread, or at least, skim through them and note the dates...Tom did not 'revive' this thread; "odog" did with a "..."What the purpose was is anyone's guess... :-lol

What the purpose was is anyone's guess...Have a look at a recent thread, initiated, in an entirely constructive manner, by John Cillis. I believe it was one or more of the responses in that thread that lead to Joe's post in this one.Doug

While PDs are unwelcome, its also true that excessive honey making post are eqaully bad. Unreasonable praise, holier than thou, high priest atttitudes also tick off people and normally most of the time posts start detorriating from that point onwards. Modereation is required in both-critism as well as praise. Any extreme on either side results in a general decay. Fundamentally, as a race, in this annonymous internet world, we have lost the habit of respecting fellow humans and with overdue stress on information we have created class divides(the know and the know nots) just like money did in the early 60s(the have and the have nots). Blantantly sissy post praising a product is as disgusting as a banal troll.

Tom, Well put. I've been using AVSIM since it's inception and Flightsimsince 1984 so I've been around a while and have seen it mature. I believe many of the negative posts have to come from those folkswho never saw a command prompt or experienced FS the way some of ushave on machines before you could even buy a graphics card or afford8mb of ram let alone 2 Gigs. I have posted many times mostly for help from the community and moreoften than not receive a polite and helpfull response. When I post I do sign my name 99.99% of the time unless I simply forget. The problem with your post is that most likley the only ones who will read it are those of us who have been around a while and notthe ones that are constantly complaining. If any of you folks do read any of these posts I would suggest thatyou do a search for Flight Sim History and see how good you have it.Thanks and keep up the great work.Craig

Some people are just plain unhappy. They will constantly be negative in an irrational attempt to bring others to their state of misery. Yes, misery likes company. This is not an idle bit of folklore. I believe that very serious consideration be given to the design, and implementation, of a process that forces people to fully identify themselves. How that can be done I have no idea. The socially challenged will complain on the grounds of free speech despite having never read any country's constitution. They are easily ignored as self-identified problems.Perhaps a separate thread, started by Tom, that lays out some of the problems and benefits of proper identification and verification would be good. There are a lot of smart people here and maybe a process can be developed by the community to allow the forums to be managed in a way that insures a sensible and productive dialog.Dick BoleyDelmont, PAAmateur Radio call sign N3HKNNear airport 5G8Anyone to paranoid to post that kind of info has other issues.

>I have deliberately posted this in the FS forum because this>is the community that is most directly effected by this.>>If you have read "The Games People Play", you will know of>"posion dwarfs"; people who no matter the situation, poison>the atmosphere for others. Folks, I suggest you all have a>read of Brent's Letter to the Editor here:>>http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...sg_id=824&page=>>Another very creative and contributing individual lost because>of the vocal minority (fringe???) in our community. How many>talented folks do we need to loose before the poison dwarfs>take over? As a community, what are going to do about it, if>anything? Does anyone really care?Tom,In academia, I've learned a variation on this:C.A.V.E. peopleColleagues Against Virtually Everything...

Tom, The lack of civility often found here is painful to me. Consequently I neither post as often as I used to do, nor do I read the postings of others to the same extent as I once did. I am certain that someone reading these words will be immediately tempted to reply, "Then you should stay out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat!" However, I agree with the point made by more than one of the responders above: this phenomenon is world-wide and not unique to simmers. The Earth is populated by malcontents who get their jollies by flaming others, and a forum such as this is not only an inviting venue for their self-gratification but the degree of anonymity it provides further encourages them. There is no practical way to avoid them, unfortunately, so I just keep my distance on days when I feel particularly thin-skinned.

Someone who uses the alias `Roadkill` has a thin skin? Are you being ironic, Bob? Perhaps a more civilised `handle` might be a way to represent you believe you have something to contibute? In fact,if we are going to talk about anonymity and the problems in forums why not do away with these childish aliases altogether? Allcott

I have noticed that most of us who revived this post actually use our real names (hopefully). I think that one of the reasons for the community to "go south" is that Avsim today accepts anonumus signatures.As I remember, one of the good rules earlier, was to use real own names in all posts. Then it was more like a family who participated in the discussions. And not like now, when there are all kinds of strange signatures we have to deal with. :-rollI really don

Tom,Thanks for the post regarding this issue. I agree that this kind of post is getting out of hand and is bothersome to me, so are a lot of other things regarding changes in our society that I don't like. You can tell that I'm an "old guy" (54 next month) when I make a comment like that; nevertheless civility amongst many of us is becoming passe'. I won't say that rudeness is particular to any one generation, but it does seem to continually get worse and affects all aspects of our lives in every way. It's sad and disturbing; I hope that it will turn around one day. What you're seeing here at AVSIM is just one example of it.I handle it by just ignoring that kind of post and moving on; it's not worth my time. Perhaps others could try the same, although it's hard and difficult to do sometimes, I know. Should you decide to change the rules for belonging to and posting in the forums by all means do so. I'll be happy to follow whatever rules you set up. I love this site and get the majority of my flightsim news here; it's a great site and I appreciate it.I've been simming now for almost 20 years; I bought my first PC in '87 and my first flightsim was Chuck Yeager's (can't recall the exact title). I've always loved flying and being able to do that at home on a computer was just great and still is. For the "new" flightsim guys you really have no idea how far the franchise has come since the beginning. What we have now and will have in a couple of weeks with FSX is just "awesome" as they like to say now. You won't get any bashing of MS of any kind from me; I love the sim and when a new version comes out I tweak it for my current setup and enjoy it for what I'm able to get out of it until such time as I upgrade my system and get even more out of it. Simple as that, no bashing required.As for Brent, I feel your pain but I hate to see you leave the FS community because of a handful of people whose sole intent by posting here at AVSIM is to stir up trouble. Posting legitimate concerns about something not working quite right or pointing out problems or bugs and asking for fixes for those problems is one thing, negative posting and MS (and other companies) bashing just for the sake of doing it and trying to cause problems here is something else again. Like I said, I simply ignore those posts and move on. Try it, you'll be a lot happier.I'm excited about FSX; I have no doubts it will be another step up in the FS chain, and as always, as the months go by after it's release will be improved upon with freeware and payware addons and tweaks and tips to improve its performance for everyone. So far it has always been that way and I see no reason why this new version should be any different.So, one more time, thanks to the ACES team for FSX; and to you Tom and the rest of the AVSIM staff for this great site!

Bill,Please read my private msg to you. Thanks!-Rick