>From what I've read, the developers who have decided to>withdraw from this hobby seem to be doing so because of the>overwhelming negativity of e-mails directed to them>personally; they are not necessarily leaving because of>negative forum activity. -Lindy >I don

I doubt I could convince you to go back to Orbiter. Recently, there was hot thread (it may be still going on - I got tired of following it real quick) that was started by someone mouthing off about how it wasn't a "real" simulator, apparently, because it didn't include certain built-in features. Orbiter is FREE! The attitude is just perplexing to me.There are still some good folks involved, though I understand what you mean. I've almost finished making a LM PGNS MFD; but I'm still on the fence about whether or not I'm going to put it out there in the public domain...

Hi Jon..... I can certainly sympathize. Not being a developer/designer in any sense of the word, I could only comment on what I've observed over the years I've participated at Avsim. Obviously there are folks who have left the hobby -- such as yourself -- more because of the tone of forum posts than because of any personal derogatory e-mails received. -Lindy :-wave

David Whilst I can see what your objectives are by having a charge,and to some extent I agree that it would possibly deter some from posting abuse if it was going to cost them, I don't believe that this is really the way to go.A charge ,however small ,would almost certainly deter many of the people who post responsable and informative posts .In addition there are almost certainly ,in particular among the very young and the very old(read retired),those for whom any charge may be hard to meet.One of the best things about a forum like this is that it is open to all . A "closed " forum ie: one that requires some kind of fee or other qualification for entry will possibly quickly turn into an exclusive semi private club, thus excluding some who may have good information and opinions to contribute.Dave

Hello Tom and all fellow simmers...I have been simming for over 14 years...RL Pilot with 500 hours. Here is my spin...I really like the idea of being able to wipe out a Poison Dwarf by name and never to see his musings ever again...can it be done? Just think, you see a nasty post, zap, it's gone and a filter is launched to banish that PD from the readers eyeballs forever. If it could be set up as a member preference, then each member on AVSIM would choose whom to let into his living room for an intelligent discourse and dwarves need not apply. That would be cool...In the meantime, I'll simply continue to ignore these fools and move on. I always take the time to thank the freeware developers and praise thier work. As far as the payware guys go, I hold them up to a more professional standard vis a vis thier profit motive which is fine with me but the product has to perform as advertised.I had a problem once with a notable scenery design company's performance and I just turned thier product into a coaster for my Chardonnay...and alerted my fellow simmers to the problems I experienced with the product. I would not do that with freeware as there was no economic impact to me so why should I complain about anything? Never look a gift horse in the mouth...right? I think that the more mature and seasoned guys and gals on the forums should just ignore the pea brained and move on to the more insightful and learned posts that make this a such phenomenally enjoyable hobby (read: obsession to my wife).That's my opinion...I could be wrong here.

I really like the idea you brought up about a filter. That would allow each individual to choose if he or she wanted to listen to the rants of a PD without getting into the issue's of deleting posts. I've become somewhat adept at recognizing certain handles that I pass over, but it would be a lot easier with a filter. John Fitzpatrick

>As a last resort you>could even come up with a membership fee if the problem>persisted. (but I would think the problems would tend to>whittle away before that became necessary)>>Whatever Avsim decides to do, you have my full support.>>Andy Hi,i think it is sign of the time we live in,and it will sadly not go away...i think it'll become worse.now i know a lot of you will think i'm talking rubbish,but,at least where i live,there's very little people that tend to "care" about other peoples opinions...and that is reflected everywhere(goodness me,even i am becoming guilty of this behaviour...)...first,a little background->i myself am in a debt reducing programme,which basicly means i haven't got a dime to spend(but it is my own fault,so no problem there for me ;-),and nothing to worry about for you guys.)... i can see,being in this situation,that even my own family doesn't care about what is happening in my life,but this is not because they don't care,it is because they simply do not understand what's happening,which is what also happens in this community,a lot of people do not understand(or care) about what is happening,and this is what is killing us i think.now,i'm not here to advocate that people shouldn't get into creditcards,loans,or whatever(obviously,you should not,as when you loose your job or similar,you are in big trouble ;-) )this example,from a totally different thing,shows that ignorance is becoming the single biggest thing that is driving people out of our hobby,something i myself truly regret,as i obviously cannot pay for addons(my debt company would hang me ;-) ) i am really grateful for the fact that we as a community do have a big load of addons that were created by people as fond of,or even more fond of,flightsimming then we are(or were,in this case ;-) ).i even took the plunge,and started repainting my favourite plane,so as to give something(how crappy it may be ;-) ) back to the very same community i've received so much enjoyment from.our hobby is presently consumed by people who want everything,now,and perfect and that,dear reader,is a sign of the times we in the wealthy western world live in:anything goes,anything can,and,best of all,you and i are encouraged to get everything you can lay your hands on,and to ignore the rest.....this is reflected in our hobby as "hey,that plane of MR b really ####,i'll go out and tell the simming world" ...and another developer bites the dust,while mr a did not know that mr b worked for 6 months in his spare time on his project.now as to a solution,i think the options are limited....it is quite hard to convince the world that they should be polite,and corteous,when dealing with things they don't like...it should have been in their upbringing allready,anyway ;-).i would regret Avsim wanting a membership fee,yet i would understand why....on the other hand,i doubt Avsim would regret me leaving them ;-) ... i truly believe this will be the only solution to absolutely ban every poison dwarf effectively,but,it would also mean the PD have won their battle for disrespect and ignorance.lastly,thank you for reading,don't let this spoil your appetite,or your hobby ;-)

A good thread, and a subject that does indeed need addressing.A way to remedy this problem of these PD's might be as has been adopted on a few other forums where a few idiots pour out their bile and annoy/upset the regulars: after a short time it is clear to the users and Mods to see who is causing the problems; instead of merely locking/deleting threads, use their IP address to track them, and put a permanent block on them. If they try to use a different PC they'll only be blocked on that one too after they carry on in their normal fashion. If anyone tries to access these forums with a IP 'blocker', don't even let them in!!As to the emailing suggestions; all I can say is that I WILL try to be more responsive with respect sending positive emails to developers (freeware/payware alike) when there's something I like....I've sent a few, but jeez....right now I owe so many freeware developers a thanks I wouldn't know where to start ;-) Fortunately a good proportion of the good downloads I've had have come via Avsim, and the developers participate in these forums, so I have been vocal in singing their praises at times here.....

Hi Tom, I feel this is just another example of forums resembling reality.I see the same reactions in real life as well, whether it be in Church activities, school activities, Scouting, or sports. Now I feel it is because I take leadership positions and am often the recipient on the firing line, so to speak, so I appreciate where you and Brent are coming from.I also feel that is is more appearant around the Holidays. This could be for two reasons, IMHO. One, kids are home from school, and cranky people take time off from work to rant in the Avsim forums.That is why I created my own forums. You see, I still have somewhere to rant. If I had a nickel for every post I wanted to reply to here, I would be a rich man.I had a whole page to reply to on one thread posted by Steve just the other day, and decided against posting it.And that is my point.I am quite sure, as I have been told, that some members simply ignore my posts.That is the same advice I have to give to others.While it may be difficult, it is the most viable solution, IMHO.Simply ignore the posts.When it comes to payware, consumers can say what they like, as long as it is true.To me, Integrity rules the day. Some developers have it, others don't.One thing I don't do is ridicule Freeware products. Now, those are the ones I consider Poison dwarfs.When a payware developer decides to release a product, that is their choice, and as a consumer, IMHO, I can say what I like, or dislike about that product.The Hypocrisy comes in, IMHO, when a payware develope says thank you when they receive a compliment but deletes a post, or warns a user, when that user has a negeative thing to say, even though it is true.This is part of the moral decay of society, IMHO, where just like the movie, "Some people simply can't handle the truth"But as the library continues to grow, I see more and more FREEWARE products every day.And if someone doesn't like a FReeware product, do as I do, delete it and shut up.Or go make your own.I have tried my hand at repainting, and am learning much at the same time. I may release them, I may not. And if someone doesn't like it, I will simply tell them to go fly a kite, because I don't give a rip what they think.But If I sell a product, which I do with businesses I own, then I am responsible to the consumer, and I chose to put myself in that position.And for the developer that charges cash for it, no matter how little or how much, if they can't handle the criticism, then they can go fly a kite, too.I have seen more freeware stuff in the last two years, that is really great stuff.And for every talented person we think we lose, I believe there are many more behind them ready to fill in as necessary.Every one is replaceable, and those that think they are not, are living in a dream world, and need help.Life goes on, our hobby goes on, and continues to grow because of the gifts of the many.And BTW, doesn't this same conversations come up every year at this time, anyway.I swear I've seen this the last 4 years, at least, if not longer.Tom, you and the staff here do a commendable job, and I appreciate it. I may not post as often as I did in the past, but I try to help when I can.That is how I remain a member here. I simply ignore posts I don't like. I suggest others do the same, and all will be well, or until School resumes in January, and cranky people return to work. Best Regards,Merry Christmas,Happy Holidays,Joehttp://aboutpolitics.net/images/bannerav.gif.About Politics.net - FORUMShttp://pub207.ezboard.com/bpoliticsgivemel...tyorgivemedeath.Contribute to the Richard Harvey Scholarship Fund.http://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtml

This happens eventually on almost every forum, unfortunately. The tone of the community is set by those that choose to participate. I have been reading these forums for probably two years now yet have rarely participated. No good reason but I should probably start. If enough users that are positive and want the community to be fun and dynamic "take over" the forums then the tone will eventually change or at least drown out the negative posts. Usually the ones that have something to complain about (or have very "unique" personalities) yell the loudest and when everyone else is being silent, their voice is the only one being heard.

We do track and/or block IP addresses, btw.

Too bad we can't use a "kill-filter" as used on USENET.Ed

Hey guys,I'm relatively new to active participation at the AVSIM forums but I have to say, spending most of my time online in the Screenshot Forum, I rarely see anything but praise! Interesting and sad to see another eminent freeware developer disappear.I myself purchased my first payware add-on for the sim in 4 years the other day (Legendary 727, I couldn't hold out!) and what a beauty! Certainly I can understand why it is payware.I digress. My point refers to an earlier reply which mentioned charging access to the forums to keep riffraff out. I strongly disagree. Having put my toe in the water at airliners.net, I find it is a deeply irritating and dull forum for the sheer volume of Airbus bashing and nationalistic crap (displayed by all and sundry) that is voiced there. In my opinion, people believe that since they paid for access, they are allowed to say what they like. In this mode of operation, a certain gratefulness is felt to AVSIM by every decent individuals - it is up to us to sort the idiots out.Cheers,Toni

Im not sure why this is a big deal. I've been using the internet since the early 90's when usenet was king and compuserve was a flight sim mecca. I learned in unmoderated forums to recognize which posters whose opinion mattered, and which were idiots. This forum isnt any different. There are plenty of threads I totally skip because I see who is participating or what the thread is about. I absolutely skip (and wish I could kill) any thread over 50 posts. Those are almost guaranteed to have deviated from the initial topic. Thats not to mention that such large posts ought to be moved elsewhere because they are unwieldy in size relative to the GUI.All I can say is recognize fools when you see them. I think that the answer here is to modify the forum software to allow user level plonk. I can say my personal forum would be a heck of a lot smaller in size if I could personally eliminate the fools who cause most of this trouble.Relative to payware or freeware developers...I did payware for 5 years under Game Tool Technologies banner. have done freeware since. I totally discount idiots and AOL users (same thing) and otherwise dont worry about it.Happy simming and Happy Holidays to everyone.Eric Joiner

I for one do not know what to do.My main involvement with AVSIM first came with ProPilot 99. We were a small but tight forum. All of us involved with PP99 felt a kinship, a togetherness. Whether we felt we were "bucking the system" by not going with the "Microsofties" or whether we just realized that with a Voodoo card, Pro Pilot 99 gave us the feel of flight that we could never explain. I don't know what kept us together.That forum is still active, and is still a breath of fresh air. PP99 is long gone, but the friendships that it spawned are still fresh.Even though many of us "graduated" to FS2002 and later FS2004, the forum on the Microsoft side has never had the togetherness Pro Pilot had.I too tire of the pettiness. I tire of wanna be attorney generals holding court over the forum because some ignorant kid wanted a gauge package, and didn't realize it was copyrighted.I tire of ungrateful downloaders who have the gall go complain or razz someone over a gift that's given freely.I tire of overzealous commercial developers who make it near impossible for their honest consumers to enjoy their products, because they are too busy trying to catch the small few who seem to always find ways around any type of protection.But most of all, I tire of the fact that no one ever speaks of the joy of an early morning flight in Alberta, with the sun just peaking over the Canadian rockies, and the air so crisp, you can see your breath fogging the windshield. Or the tropical breeze and the smell of the ocean that permiates your nose as you accelerate down the runway on some small tropical island.When flight simming is at it's best, it can take us away from our humdrum lives and fill it with adventure, relaxation, and the thrill of flight. When it's at it's worst, we are constently tinkerking with sliders, loading upgrades, changing cfg entries, and benchmarking for that extra frame.....With Pro Pilot 99, you were stuck with what you had, so we had no choice but to fly, and marvel at the world around us. Perhaps it's time that we spent a little less time tinkering under the hood, and spent more time slipping the surley bounds of this earth, for when we land, we are sure to be in a much better mood, than when we took off.