I have been following this thread with interest, mainly due to the assumptions of ages connected with attitudes, and of a "game" that some of us is taking too seriously...So it looks as a kind of fight between the youngsters and the elderly...I find this fight rather funny, as my interest in aviation started when I was 8-10 years old, and today, after more than half a century, my enthusiasm is about the same!This is to say that I take my hobby seriously, and I do not feel "comfortable" when it is called a game. This also means that I agree that the language we use, if we really want to communicate, has to be accurate. So I come back to the landing. In fact ILS, as the name stands for, is a landing aid that, when taken to an extreme, with the adequate equipment both on ground and airborne, can effectively land an airplane by itself.As when it comes to GPS, what can be said is that with current commercial equipment only an approach can be obtained. This is due to the low vertical accuracy of the existing GPS, when compared with the horizontal accuracy. However with experimental equipment, where the accuracy of the GPS is enhanced by ground reference equipment, the landing can and has been achieved. This is one of the goals of the European project Galileo.Merry Christmas to all fellow simmers of all ages!

I immediately recognized that *skyking* must be a youngster since he asked the question in the same nonchalant way my 14-year old does it. When my son asks me something it often takes a few back-and-forth exchanges before I finally know what he is asking. Even assuming someone is an aviation rookie a forum like this is an excellent exercise in properly forming a question so others can understand it. If you don't know terminology describe what you are doing and what you are seeing and not try to use "half" words or "half" sentences.I remember my physics teacher was always saying that properly phrased problem is already half way to the solution.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

I'd just like to throw in my usual: 'if ya must fly powered, fly proper!' GPS is for wussies...ILS, LORAN, ADF, VOR...that's for real men ;) !And yes, I am a kid but a fledged pilot kid...

Without being so drastic, I also take much more pleasure from navigating using the "older" techniques. GPS is too easy!

In the real world flying a GPS approach is no harder or easier than flying a VOR approach. GPS approaches are great because they have allowed for instrument procedures to airports that would probably never have had any approach procedure created for them based on surface based navaids.For those folks that claim flying a GPS approach is easy. It is one of the top reasons for a pink slip on a real instrument check ride. Bouncing around in IMC trying to tune fairly complicated equipment with procedures that have multiple IAF's makes things interesting at times. You don

When i played flightsim 4 you had to go from vor to vor, now all you have to do is set your gps do the destination and head right to it.makes long flights get really boaring using gps

In the real world you dont often use GPS to go direct for anything other than short VFR flights. If you are IFR you still fly airways most of the time and you plug the VOR identifier into the GPS and usually tune and ID the VOR as well. GPS supplements VOR navigation and it offers a few other perks.What is nice about being able to file with Gulf (i.e. you have GPS) in the real IFR flight is that ATC can frequently help you cut some corners of an IFR route. Since you have GPS you are able to go direct to an intersection that is off the airway that you are currently on. That ability can save you time in the air and is no harder or easier than going VOR to VOR.Again probably the biggest advantage to GPS is that it offers more instrument approach procedure options for pilots to choose from.

this is all new to me but I like everyone inputs I have been doingall my long flight VOR to VOR, because I enjoy palying with the NAV radio's and flying long flights GPS get to Boaring! Flying fromthe east coast to the west coast my guss is you would or could useup to 18 VOR stations at 35,000 feet. Flying coast to coast GPSwould be very Boaring. 73'sSay has anyone pickup a VOR from over 225 miles? I wonder what onein the US has the longest range.

And Happy Christmas to you.Roger

>I'd just like to throw in my usual: 'if ya must fly powered,>fly proper!' GPS is for wussies...ILS, LORAN, ADF,>VOR...that's for real men ;) !>And perhap's "not so alive (PC correct)" men.....A copy of my recent reply at Flightsim com regarding use of GPS---">Bob- You're right, I shouldn't be using the GPS at all. As you might see, I totally disagree with this leaving the GPS home mentality. I've been using moving map aviation GPS's since they first became available in the early 1990's. They can be "life savers", when you only have a second to gain instant situational awareness. By leaving it home, you just might not have it when it could really help the situation. A few "disasters" around here, where a MOVING MAP GPS would have had great value.1-- Four people flying 90 miles for some quick gambling & dinner, encounter a sudden white out while in marginal VFR conditions. The aircraft slams straight into a mountain, while a GPS would show the freeway which routes around the mountain.2- A couple returning from a long cross country & IFR plan into KSLC, cancels IFR to land at his home airport approx. 35 miles before KSLC. Encounters low fog/whiteout in the darkness, turns east & slams into the mountain just above a subdivision.3- A pilot takesoff at the airport next to my home (U42) to return home to Deer Valley Airport by Phoenix, Ariz. VFR is rather marginal, but he plans to follow the freeway. Just 25 miles from the airport, he encounters haze where the freeway makes a turn to the east. But he ends up following another road to the east, which ends in a blind canyon with 12,000' steep walls. Three 360's according to KSLC radar before he slams into the canyon wall. A moving map GPS could have definately prevented this situation!4- A CFI & IFR student fly back to KSLC from southern Utah in darkness. The idea is to fly VFR & then file an inflight IFR plan to do instrument approaches when approaching KSLC. While the CFI "was" familiar with the area, he didn't consult his chart, nor a GPS. They flew right into a mountain at 8500' without even seeing it! Luckily, one minute they were flying & the next second, they were in the snow with a destroyed airplane, but both lived to tell the tale, and had cell phones.Since it's my opnion that GPS is one of the better & safer technologies to come along, I strongly advocate it's use. I'd just as soon see the VOR's turned off sooner.. than later. Yes, pilotage & learning to navigate cross country from VOR to VOR is a needed skill, but not at the expense of leaving "safer" technology home!!I guess I'm not alone here, because the majority of my retired & active commercial pilot acquaintances who belong to the Experimental Aircraft Association & build airplanes such as I, seem to do away with purchasing instruments for VOR navigation in favor of panel mount or handheld moving map GPS's."Ladamson

...or in my case-when my pitot static system malfunctioned in imc leaving a useless altimeter over hostile mountains-using my handheld gps for altitude readout along with alt. encoded readout from atc to get me out.

>Thanks for the inputs, yes Iam a kid but, I have been hit>harder playing football! so bring it on! so thanks agian for>the input Men.LOL! Hey Kid! Glad to see you're not too sensitive. Hang in there and ask away and don't let the old farts ( I'm 66 ) grind on you.Your response has made my day!Happy Holidays!Vic Baron

...or in my case - making a routine trip northward along the west coast of Florida (and anyone familiar with Florida knows how quickly that route turns to goo near the 'panhandle' latitude) when thunderstorms very quickly formed and encircled me. With a rapidly falling ceiling I reached for my now favorite button ('nearest airport'), and six minutes later I was on the ground. I can think of a number of 'saves' scored by that single feature alone.Leon

Since it's my opnion that GPS is one of the better & safer technologies to come along, I strongly advocate it's use. I'd just as soon see the VOR's turned off sooner.. than later. Yes, pilotage & learning to navigate cross country from VOR to VOR is a needed skill, but not at the expense of leaving "safer" technology home!!How about an IFR departure using GPS where the pilot flying out of Salt Lake City was given a clearance direct to Ogden VOR (OGD) at 10,000 feet. He punched "Direct To" on the GPS and keyed in ODG instead of OGD. Happily following the little magenta line on the GPS, he turned right instead of left ... which just happened to point him straight at a mountain with a peak at 13,000 feet.Fortunately, ATC caught this one and the pilot's only injury was to his pride.While GPS might have helped in the examples you gave, all of them were a result of all-too-common piloting errors (continued VFR flight into IFR conditions, poor situational awareness ... otherwise known as "Stupid Pilot Tricks"). In all 4 examples proper pilotage .. not a GPS .. was the key to keeping pilots and passengers alive.GPS is a wonderful technology, but it's not a replacement for the gray matter between a pilot's ears. To paraphrase your remark "Yes, GPS is a valuable tool, but not at the expense of leaving basic piloting skills at home!!" If used properly it can enhance safety, improve situational awareness and reduce pilot workload. However, like any tool, over reliance on the capabilities of the GPS can lead to complacency .. which in the aviation business can kill you.Fly safe ... Fly smart

I guess I kind of disagree with the term 'Stupid Pilot Tricks'. When flying VFR cross-country I keep numerous options open. in the case mentioned above I had several possibilities (any of which I was prepared to exercise safely). The GPS, however provided me with the best, and I chose to use it. I don't believe anyone would suggest it as replacement for gray matter. But as the owner of a small public use airstrip in the South (again with sometimes unpredictable weather) I've witnessed 'GPS saves' of pilots who were neither 'stupid' nor performing 'tricks', rather attempting to avoid IMC.We all make judgemental errors (albeit some less than others), and by the grace of God we survive most of them only slightly scathed. If I can use (and afford) a tool that increase my odds of surving my own blunders, then I shall do it.Regards,Leon