Nothing I can add to this but thanks for the great topic and replies... it's something I've been meaning to ask/discuss but never have. I love to make my flights as real as possible and I guess just flying pre-programmed routes isn't reality.

In Radar Contact, IAP Approaches allow you to execute a full approach per your plates, whether the airport is served by an Approach controller or not. Look for the IAP Approach menu item, available as early as 60 miles from the arrival airport (if that airport is not served by an Approach controller), or as early as initial contact to Approach if it is. When you choose IAP Approach, you will be prompted to provide the type of approach you are going to fly: ILS, GPS, or NDB, etc. After your approach clearance, you will not hear from the controller again, unless you stray out of the Approach area (40 miles away from the airport). Once you are established on final, an IAP Approach clearance will be (for example):

“Baron 5231C, maintain (MVA) until the initial. Cleared the full NDB runway 23 approach” If you are in an IAP Approach, you have the option to ask for a Visual Approach or a Localizer Back-Course approach.

Radar Contact Documentation

The following is not to prove anyone "wrong" per se. Rather, I'm posting because there are a good number of decent approximations here about ATC, but I want to set the record straight to a certain degree, from an ATC perspective: First, to answer the OP:In the United States, you file and enter the STAR right from the start (without selecting the runway, if able). If the STAR is runway-dependent but you're not sure which one just yet, select the STAR that has the lowest crossing restrictions (you will see these on US charts: www.airnav.com), or the one you expect, using the information from the TAF (terminal area forecast). Why select the one with the lower crossing restrictions? If it changes, it's easier to shallow a descent than increase one (or, it's easier to delay a descent than wish you started 5 min ago). In the EU and elsewhere, the STARs are generally assigned by ATC, as there are several for different situations. You have to wait for them to tell you on those. Second, given the option of vectoring or leaving an aircraft on a STAR, most radar controllers will leave the aircraft on the STAR. Why? Vectoring transfers navigational responsibility to the controller (subject to the conditions of PIC responsibility for the pilot). This increases the workload of the controller unnecessarily if the STAR navigates the aircraft all the way to where the controller needs him anyway. Where Richard's statement is true, however, in is the case of full approach, versus vectors: most controllers opt for vectors to final (from the STAR), instead of full approaches for both time savings and traffic flow. Third, as Richard mentioned, there are "playbooks" in ATC, where runway configurations are defined, based on the weather, time of day, the Air Traffic Manager's shirt color, and so on. Most airports/facilities have a general idea of "if the wind is [xxx/xx], then the config is [this], unless there is an operational advantage gained otherwise." Controller config decisions are based more on this than aircraft tailwind limitations. This is primarily because the playbook tends to be more restrictive, and because aircraft performance varies significantly aircraft to aircraft. Fourth, pertaining to the altitudes and changes, there are differences for enroute, versus terminal. If you're talking to center and he says "descend and maintain" it generally means "descend now, but the rate is up to you, provided it meets the 500FPM minimum (from the FARs)," because they understand the higher the better in terms of fuel economy. Because of this, most center controllers will not balk at the 1000FPM of the Descend Now option (it's why it's there in the real world, really - to appease ATC, while not sacrificing economy). Instead, you'll also hear lots of center controllers saying "descend pilot's discretion to cross DOCCS at 15,000 [...]" meaning "start down when you hit T/D, as long as you meet my restriction." When you get closer in and there are more aircraft are in a confined location (terminal area), and the approach controller says "descend and maintain" it means "do it, now, and quickly" (along the lines of FL CH, or however you want to get your best rate). As far as descents go, I hear a lot of people saying RC sometimes uses phraseology like "descend to 10,000 by 40nm of [the airport]." You will hardly ever hear that in the real world (at least in the US). If you have any questions, let me know. I'm sure Julio would be glad to answer them as well.

In short: forget about all this when you use default FSX ATC... ;) I've been thinking about getting Radar Contact, specially now I have the 737NGX... Would it makes things more realistic...? How does Radar Contact work with flightplans that you have to enter in the CDU...?

Your right Kyle, I think were both right but I think its important to explain a couple of things to non ATCers … not to foggy the situation I hope!! There are different procedures at every airport so no two are ever going to be the same. Also there are ICAO, FAA and UK regulations used for air navigation (depending where you are in the world) and each one has its own idiosyncrasies. (for non ATC informed simmers info … its important to know that more than one STAR may be in use depending on the airspace surrounding any particular airport … as an example four STAR’s may be in use all from different directions and all ending at the same point (you will be separated vertically of course!). STAR’s are fine and leaving an aircraft on a STAR is ok providing you can apply the appropriate lateral separation with other traffic when required to do so. Positioning multiple aircraft (and types) from different directions on the end of an ILS (say 3000ft at 15 NM) you can’t do this with STAR’s alone or by implementing speed control on a STAR, you have to strategically vector. VFR flights may also become a factor if you have slow traffic to take into consideration when positioning IFR traffic in an ILS. In the end as we all know every situation is diffent. In the UK we have to apply a specific minimum lateral spacing between aircraft for wake turbulence, we can’t use the ICAO way of just saying ‘caution wake turbulence’ and let the pilot decide if he or she is too close to the preceding aircraft on final (see below chart for details). If only flight sim could reproduce wake turbulence! … no one would never be up a 747’s tail on final then LOL.

UK WAKE TURBULENCE SPACING

Leading

Aircraft

Following Aircraft

Minimum Distance

A380

A380

Heavy

Medium

Small

Light

4 Miles

6 Miles

7 Miles

7Miles

8 Miles

Heavy

Heavy/A380

Medium

Small

Light

4 Miles

5Miles

6 Miles

7 Miles

Medium

Medium*

Small*

Light⁺

3 Miles

3 Miles

5 Miles

Small

Medium or Small

Light

3 Miles

4 Miles

* Where leading medium aircraft is a B757, DC8, B707, IL62 or VC10 the minimum distance will be increased to 4 miles ⁺ Where leading medium aircraft is a B757, DC8, B707, IL62 or VC10 the minimum distance will be increased to 6 milesthe chart didt work right

here is a link for anyone intrested in wake turbulence and spacing http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-26BEA7AEB1E663560418F8837927A87A/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIC/P/072-2010/EG_Circ_2010_P_072_en_2010-10-07.pdf

In short: forget about all this when you use default FSX ATC... ;) I've been thinking about getting Radar Contact, specially now I have the 737NGX... Would it makes things more realistic...? How does Radar Contact work with flightplans that you have to enter in the CDU...?

You create the flight plan and import it into RC (FSX .pln format) before you begin your cockpit procedures. You can either include a SID and STAR in the plan or just submit the route, RC has options you configure before each flight to let you fly how you want. Personally I usually submit only the route into RC and then select one of the RC departure options that allow you to fly your own SID. That way you can enter the correct SID into the FMC when you get the active runway from ATIS. On approach, you can let RC guide you onto final or tell RC you want to fly your own STAR. Once again you can program the FMC when you get the active runway from ATIS. A drawback to RC is that the default voices aren't as good as the FSX ATC, but there is a 3rd party voicepack by 'meatwater' which overcomes this. I've attached some notes I made from the documentation when learning RC. Some of it's pretty simple but then, so am I :)

Besides the IAP request in RC, you can also use the "PD" request before TOD. When ATC gives you a new alt before TOD, you have the option to respond "PD" (pilots discretion) You basically ask ATC to start your decent when you think it's best. That way you can start at TOD. Sofar I've been able to decent according to VNAV pretty much all of the time.The other option in mountainous areas is to use NOTAM. Which gives you a bit more room to manouver With standard ATC vectoring is way off, RC gets a bit closer, but really realistic vectoring where (alt) restrictions are in place is not yet availlable in FSX And on a side note: hats off for PMDG, it is impressive to see the vnav working. Even if you delay your decent, or start early, most of the time VNAV will pick up and recalculate the path, once back on track.

In short: forget about all this when you use default FSX ATC... ;) I've been thinking about getting Radar Contact, specially now I have the 737NGX... Would it makes things more realistic...? How does Radar Contact work with flightplans that you have to enter in the CDU...?

Yes the default ATC is a pita. But you can find your way around the ATC, if you have an external planning tool that supports sids/stars.You start a free flight on your selected departure airport. Listen to the ATIS to get the active runway.You can then use your external tool to create a flight plan with SID selected for the active runway. Save the plan and start a new flight with the plan. This way the plan the FSX ATC want you to follow will contain the SID aswell.As for START, I select one based on the general directions I'm comming from, because I know the ATC will vector me somewhere in the middle of it. I'm thinking about RC aswell, but have already exceeded this month FSX addons budget ^_ ^ Edit: One question about RC, how can it handle traffic? will it work with MyTraffixX?

I use Topcat (Higly recommendable for fuel calc etc ) to predict the runway in use (with the dropdown menu you then can choose alternate rw's according to wind. It will show if you have head wind or tailwind)Based on that I plan my route. I already fill in a star, but don't connect is to the plan. (route discontinuity) When nothing changed once I am near the airport, I connect the dots and fly the star.You can also copy the flightplan, use it as alternate with another star, same way as the original plan.

You should plan for the STAR for your arrival gate. Once close to the airport ATC will vector you to a location to fix on the localizer for the approach you'll use. A real life example would be a flight from KSLC to KDEN. Say, for example, your flight plan is LEETZ2 CHE TOMSN4. TOMSN4 is the Northwest gate into Denver. The FMC will display legs inbound on TOMSN4 all the way to FQF and then display "ROUTE DISCONTINUITY" after that. You would fly your flight plan. Say for example that Denver is landing on 16R and this is the runway they'll want you to use. At some point on the arrival, they'll vector you off of the TOMSN4 to a fix to pick up the 16R localizer. For example, aroundTOMSN you may get vectored over to NIWOT. At this point you'd select ILS 16R as the approach. You'd put NIWOT into the first page, first line of the RTE, and you'd be on the ILS 16R all the way in. Basically to sum up, you plan to use the STAR for the direction in which you'll arrive knowing that once there, ATC will vector you to the appropriate route for the runway they want you to use. David Barry

Besides the IAP request in RC, you can also use the "PD" request before TOD. When ATC gives you a new alt before TOD, you have the option to respond "PD" (pilots discretion) You basically ask ATC to start your decent when you think it's best. That way you can start at TOD. Sofar I've been able to decent according to VNAV pretty much all of the time.

Jerry, how do you use "PD" in RC? What version do you have. I read about it in the manual but there is no option in RC window.

Jerry, how do you use "PD" in RC? What version do you have. I read about it in the manual but there is no option in RC window. Check page 125 of the Radar Contact v4.3 manual http://www.jdtllc.com/v4/rcv43.pdf

Check page 125 of the Radar Contact v4.3 manual http://www.jdtllc.com/v4/rcv43.pdf

Hm. Richard, I cant see anything regarding PD on that page. danko

Hello, On departure I have ATIS so I know active runway and can select runway and SID for departure. But what with arrival airport? I have last route point but can't select STAR and runway because I don't know active one, or what will ATC assign me.

At departure time, typically you wll know the CURRENT arrival airport information, as part of your pre-flight briefing etc. You COULD simulate this in FSX, If using REAL weather, check the airport info on the Internet.orBefore you load the aircraft you want to fly in, load say the C172, and position it at your destination airport, and then get the ATIS from FSX.Then load the the Airacrft you want to fly in, back at your departure airport. Note: use say the Default c172 initially at your desination airport -- you do not want to try to load the PMDG twice, or move it by selecting a new airport, once it is loaded. There are probably any number of other ways to get your destination ATIS.... apart from trying to pick it up on the FSX COMS radios while at your departure airport. (FSX does simulate the limited radio range for ATIS -- and sometimes screws that up as well -- ref: the Reload Scenery fix ). Geoff