First off: Happy New Year!!! I hope it brings happiness and prosperity to everyone on this board!I'd just like to offer my opinion on the newly released FS Force program.I've heard negative things about it, and I understand its based on people's experiences with it.I've got the trial version, and I find that its at least 100 times better than the default FS2004 FFB. Why? The FFB which comes with FS2004 is horrible, with it's laggy FFB response etc.Before you jump to conclusions about the product, make sure you read the readme documentation and turn OFF the FFB in flight simulator, and make sure you understand how the trim system that comes with FS Force works. It is much more realistic. In fact, when it comes to the way the trim forces feel on the stick, it comes close to being 100% realistic. The trim control that comes with FS2004 is woefully unrealistic, as it was designed for non-FFB joysticks.Small things like feeling the braking g-forces on the runway, or feeling the cornering g-forces, or slight buffeting vibrations when the landing gear is down, make this think definitely worth the money you'll spend on it. I believe it will make the same difference to the realism of FS as getting the SF.260 from RealAir Simulations, and that's a big statement!I for one, and very impressed with it, mostly because FS2004's default FFB system is horrible, and this is something I've been praying would come one day (I love the FFB effects in IL2, and this comes closer to that for me for FS2004).Ultimately, the decision's yours, but don't dismiss it entirely because some people didn't set it up correctly of have not-so good or compatible hardware. I have the MS FFB2 joystick, and I am in no way affiliated with the people who created FS Force.JamesJames

>Small things like feeling the braking g-forces on the runway,>or feeling the cornering g-forcesand may I ask what these forces have to do with real life flying ? Next to none I am afraid. I hope they can actually be turned off.Michael J.

Actually, they have a LOT to do with real life flying. In real life, when cornering in an aircraft, you feel lateral g-forces, which are conveyed quite well via the joystick. The braking forces exist in real life, and are also well conveyed.They may not be fundamental, but I can tell you that once you get used to feeling these, you'll be amazed at how much the level of immersion is improved in the sim.The aileron and elevator responses are direct, ie there is no sloppy lag such that comes with the default FS package, which will greatly increase the accuracy of your landings, and I feel that that in itself is more than worth it.There are plans to add more forces into FS Force, like turbulence.Did I mention the increased drag you feel when lowering the landing gear?James

I've never felt any braking forces, or turning forces through the yoke in a real aircraft. I've also flown many retractable aircraft, and never felt the increased drag through the yoke. You don't really feel much through the yoke, except the pressure required to move it as airspeed increases. The buffeting you feel before a stall, and in turbulence is not from the yoke, but from being straped to the seat. Now if they made a force feedback seat, that would be nice.

I have to agree with "Someone" who writes above. The forces are not really felt through the yoke. If on the other hand, the software simulated the variable 'tautness' of the yoke which increases with airspeed, at least in small GA aircraft that would be good and realistic. I appreciate that an attempt is being made to improve the default settings with forcefeedback however and I hope that some of the comments are being noted in order to develop the product. I have to say also, that I do think the price is a bit steep. Some have argued in favour of it but relatively speaking it's too high in my estimation.

>If on the other hand, the software simulated the variable> 'tautness' of the yoke which increases with airspeed, >at least in small GA aircraft that would be good and realistic. Yes it does and it is completely adjustable in each aircraft profileon both aileron and elevator. There is a graph of Force vs Speedand you just drag the line anywhere you want.FaxCap

>I have to say also, that I do think the price is a bit steep.>Some have argued in favour of it but relatively speaking it's>too high in my estimation.>>Well, I thought I'd give it a go - just to see what the fuss was about. I read the manual first - ALL of it, but didn't feel one single "force" with any of the three aircraft I tried (cessna upto 747). I feel much better now! I'd no intention of buying it for that high price, and now I know I'm missing out on nothing as well! ;-)Hi,Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

>I read the manual first - ALL of it, but didn't>feel one single "force" with any of the three aircraft I tried>(cessna upto 747). >Cheers,>PaulWhat brand of joystick, Paul?If you felt NO feedback at all then there is something wrongin your installation. Did you turn off FF in FlighSim?FaxCap

Wow..I just can't believe the negative reactions to a program that was so entrepreneural. Some of you guys are unbelieveable! THE FORCES DO WORK...IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT HARDWARE AND A 8TH GRADE READING LEVEL! I'm amazed at how this $35 program is making so many people react as they are. I wouldn't fly without FSFORCE because it does have an "immersion factor". Some of you talk about the idea that if a SEAT that created forces were available, you'd buy it. Why do I believe that if I invented one, you would find my price too high, and tell me that your seat bottom didn't move EXACTLY as it does in a real plane? This is a SIM! The developers and the artists and the thinkers are trying to make this a more enjoyable hobby for us. If you don't want to buy it, then don't. But don't say it doesn't work....because it works unbelievably well. So....until all of you get my FSFORCE SEAT (Price: $1500.00) coming out before next Christmas, save your money and make believe you feel things when you fly. At least my joystick moves! Stan

>What brand of joystick, Paul?Saitek Cyborg 3D FFB>If you felt NO feedback at all then there is something wrong>in your installation. Did you turn off FF in FlighSim?>>FaxCap"I read the manual - ALL of it">THE FORCES DO WORK...IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT HARDWARE AND A 8TH GRADE READING LEVELHow contumelious.Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

>>What brand of joystick, Paul?>>Saitek Cyborg 3D FFB>"I read the manual - ALL of it"So you did see the bit just for Saitek sticks?Does the Saitek require drivers, Paul?You know how hardware can be. :-) I run Win2000 Proand must have the MSFF drivers installed while XPI understand has the drivers built in.I'm not familiar with the Saitek stick, Paulbut my MS FF2 gives incredible feedback underFS Force. I'm sorry it doesn't work for you.FaxCap

My MSSWFFB2 works just wonderful in FS9. Great forces, ground bumps, trim levels, etc. are awesome without any help from a 3rd party. Stick tightens up with speed just like you'd expect. I also like the no centering force which is more realistic. I don't understand why I would want to pay $35 for something when I paid for it in the stick in the first place. Unfortunately, there are some FS9 airfiles that have no FFB setup configured in them. Solution, find an airfile that's correctly configured for ffb. Each to their own, I guess. I'd rather spend the money on a couple aircraft or a new sim/game. But's that just me.BTW; IL2FB is unbelievable with the MSSWFFB2 stick. Can say the same about the MSSWFFB steering wheel for racing sims. F1-2002 using MS' wheel will make you sweat!!! I highly recommend both the MS' FFB2 stick and the MS' FFB steering wheel. I wouldn't go simming without both. ;)

I have a Saitek Cyborg 3D Force, and I use FS Force and it works well, you just have to edit each profile in FS Force, to tell it that you have a Saitek Joystick, you also have to have Saitek Drivers installed, not just the generic XP ones.

I did read the manual, honest!:-)Anyway, thanks for all your efforts to offer helpful advice but I really have no intention of buying this utility. It is simply too expensive.Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

Yeah I don't think I will buy it, 45 CAD for a utility? I payed 50 CAD for FS :-lol, so it would be dumb to spend the same amount on just a utility.