For the record, I was not bashing the program. I don't have a FF joystick, I fly with a yoke. When someone makes force feedback yoke & pedals, I'll give the program a try. It would be nice to feel the controls get mushy as the airspeed drops close to a stall, and feel the pressure when applying brakes.

This is the only force I felt via my joystick - how de'hell did they get to that price? And if I have a Micro$oft Force Feedback2 joystick and although M$ no longer make them then I would like to know why can't M$ make a util for FREE to support their Force FB joystick within their MSFS ...?Anyway.T

>This is the only force I felt via my joystick - how de'hell>did they get to that price? And if I have a Micro$oft Force>Feedback2 joystick and although M$ no longer make them then I>would like to know why can't M$ make a util for FREE to>support their Force FB joystick within their MSFS ...?>>Anyway.>>TWell I'm sure all MSFF ownwers would like an answer on that one! But, as MS have already stated they have abandoned all development on game controllers, we won't have an answer - or a solution. So, for the time being, the only way of making FF work properly in the sim is to purchase FS Force. The single advantage is that it can compensate for the incompetence of aircraft developers who don't include FF parameters, and that each airrcfat can be adapated individully, if required. The generic profiles are no more than a starting point, but a very good starting point. I have already very successfully adapted the profiles to suit the aircraft I fly in the sim which I have flown in real life.I admit I switched off the braking forces thing - interesting development idea, but like some others I'm not convinced that providing that kind of feedback through the stick (even though it's an important cue in real flying) is the way to go. But the beauty is that FS Force finally makes such choices and decisions available to the average simmer, across ALL aircraft in the folder, not just default or `specially adapted` aftermarket planes. When I spread the cost of the package against the cost of ALL aftermarket aircraft currently in that folder, well the price don't look steep to me!Allcott

One thing I'd like to mention is that I believe FS Force will improve your flying. How? The default MS FFB system is laggy, and you'll notice that when performing an aileron roll in one direction and then suddenly in the next you'll notice the FFB needs to "catch up". Not so with FS Force. Like in IL2 Sturmovik, the resistance across the ailerons and elevator are instantaneous, and very convincing.Some g-forces such as turning and braking are conveyed through the stick, and while I understand that in real life this doesn't happen, you still feel the forces from the "seat of your pants", and having these forces come through the stick can send subconcious messages to your brain while flying or taxiing, and you instinctively react more accurately to the feedback.You can "feel" if your cornering too hard, which can be invaluable if you want to taxi quickly without tipping the aircraft (works well in the F-16).You'll find landing much easier with FS Force because of the fact that the forces on the elevator are instantaneous, rather than laggy which is the way they are in the default FS FFB system.Ultimately its up to the individual, and it really depends on how important accurate FFB is to you. I chose to purchase it, because I know that I'll get more than my money's worth even if I use it for the next year and a half that FS2004 will be out.James

Micheal,I was one referring to "cornering" and "braking" forces, and I can assure you I'm no kid. I'm 28, I've been interested in flying for over 10 years, I've studied flight intimately, I have an extremely good understanding of aerodynamics and flight (I fly radio controlled aircraft and I have a passion for real-life gliding), and I also understand the importance of immersion in a flight simulator.Why is the sensation of cornering important? Simple. While taxiing, you'll notice that if you're in an aircraft that isn't terribly stable on the ground, and you need to "feel" if you're turning too tightly, the feedback on the stick can be an immeasurable means of doing so.I've also explained a painful number of times about the importance of having the elevator and aileron forces react instantaneously to changes in stick motion, ie banking left then suddenly banking right. In the default MS FFB model, there is a great deal of lag when doing this. Don't believe me? Try it! With the FS Force addon, there is NO noticeable lag when doing this. Don't believe me again? Try it!If you've flown real aircraft you'll realise that being able to feel lateral or longitudinal g-forces is fundamental to accurate flight. I understand that the people who developed FS Force will continue to update it over time and as such the experience will become ever more realistic and immersive. For that very reason I've purchased it, and I'm happy I've done so.Please don't insult my input into these forums, as I wouldn't do that to you. I'd value your opinion, because I am and adult.James

Paul,I swore I wouldn't talk about it anymore, but your sophomoric responses keep me in the game. Perhaps Beta testers are more vociferous because they have "an investment" of time, experience, and, should I say...a greater degree of knowledge about the product than those "I gave it a shot!" critics. I have no investment of money nor was I given anything to talk about the product. After months of testing, I was probably one of the first to send in my $35.Do you still "wonder" why those who invest a piece of themselves into something want to talk about it? Stan

Have downloaded this product and will be trying it out with my Saitek Cyborg Force Feedback. However the price is taking the p*ss (as we say in the UK) so highly unlikely to buy it unless there is a price reduction. I am happy to support independent FS developers but not when they are greedy.Adam

>Have downloaded this product and will be trying it out with>my Saitek Cyborg Force Feedback. >>However the price is taking the p*ss (as we say in the UK) so>highly unlikely to buy it unless there is a price reduction. I>am happy to support independent FS developers but not when>they are greedy.>>AdamWhen you apportion the cost across however many aircraft you have in your folder, it doesn't seem so much, as it benefits ALL of them. You could perhaps lobby Saitek to provide something similar for their product, then spend six months being swerved between Saitek (blaming Microsoft) or Microsoft (blaming Saitek). By the time you've finished moaning to all and sundry, everyone who's bought FS Force will have had an extra six months use compared to you, and you STILL won't have correctly functioning force feedback. If there was any chance of any outside contractor fixing this problem (expecially MS) I rather think it would have been done by now!Allcott

>Have downloaded this product and will be trying it out with>my Saitek Cyborg Force Feedback. >>However the price is taking the p*ss (as we say in the UK) so>highly unlikely to buy it unless there is a price reduction. I>am happy to support independent FS developers but not when>they are greedy.>>Adam>>If anybody's got a Saitek Cyborg 3d Rumble Stick, don't bother with FSForce as the stick doesn't use Force Feedback.Victor

Further to my last message I have just checked the FS Force website and this guy is trying to charge FORTY FIVE DOLLARS $45 (yes you read correctly!) for this program.It is people like this who are ruining our hobby. I will definitely not be buying it. A couple of us are now developing a freeware solution for FS fans with FF joysticks - more news soonVote with your wallet people!Adam

That's $45 Canadian or $35 USA is it not??FaxCap

Ah well, because the dollar is so WEAK and the pound so STRONG, us Brits get the benefit. For once.Allcott

I'll start by saying that I am an unbiased owner of FS Force, and feel that I got every cent's worth with this program. I would also point out that the original poster, while entitled to his opinion, should read a bit more carefully before expressing it in such strong language- it costs $45 CANADIAN.I won't go into a long description of how much this program has improved the FS experience, to the point where I've put my CH yoke in the closet and can't think of a reason to take it out. Indeed I now only fly aircraft that use sticks; going back to FS without FS force simply isn't possible once you've experienced it, and I know of many other users who would agree.As to the price, we all have our own personal budgets, and compared to the cost of payware aircraft or scenery vs the value you get, there's no question that FS force ranks way up there. And when I see all the garbage payware that gets purchased (I won't mention developers, but we all know the website that release 3 new aircraft a week at $20 a pop that are barely low quality freeware, or the large publisher that charges twice that for their boxed sets of junk planes. By comparison, FS Force is a very well conceived, well executed piece of software. Again, everyone's pocketbook is their own, but to imply that its criminal to charge $45CAN for it, or that such a price is causing the "end of our hobby", is simply silly hyperbole.Is the program perfect? No, and I do hope for some minor improvements and new features soon. Perhaps my only disappointment is the slow development of the package, I'd hoped for a new version that addresses some current issues by now, and for the price I think a buyer does have a reasonable expectation of that. But there's no "team" behind FS Force, its just one dedicated individual.So why am I writing insead of flying right now? Because I feel that the nature of attack on this program has become too personal, that while its everyone's option to buy any item if they choose or not to do so, this price issue has been beaten to death already and I hate to see it revived again. By all means if you don't want to purchase something, don't- and feel free to tell the forum why. But the price of anything is a highly subjective issue, discussion of which in this case has run over the fine line between calling something too expensive and casting aspersions on the developer's intentions, attitude and character. Please know that the above comments are not aimed at the original poster, but rather at the larger context of discussion that has gone on about FS Force over the past few months.Best,Joel

Yes, I was also suspicious of the motives of reviving a two-month-dead thread. Let's hope the reviver appreciates his Canadian misfunding and justifies his statement or apologises. Anyone can be confused, but it's too easy to blame others for one's own confusion.Allcott

OK thanks for correcting the Canadian/US Dollar thing. I have installed it on my PC and it works OK - still not worth