Ernie:>>Its unlikely you got a refund from Perfect Flight.>>>>More likely what happened is the bank simply removed the charge >>from your account, thus the Bank took the hit.No, no chance. As someone who does a lot of credit card business, I can asure you that the bank NEVER 'takes the hit' for this sort of reversed transaction. The vendor got charged back on his next disbursement. My credit card company cheque every month includes chargebacks from transactions on which I got an approval code, but the cardholders bank didn't complete the deal. The only way to avoid this is to get a card imprint - not possible for the over the phone transactons I do.Most of these I eventually get paid on - my main source of chargebacks is Gov't (especially DoD) cards, which are covered by different rules than private ones, and where if a department exceeds its monthly budget, the bank won't honor the transaction.Richard

Sorry, Ernie, but there's a couple of problems with your position.First, your links are all to STATE laws, while all on-line transactions are covered by FEDERAL laws. Secondly, even the laws you refer to ONLY apply to refunds or exchanges of *merchantable* products. Nothing in any of those links denies a consumer the right to a refund for products that are defective or not as described. There's no question that a consumer has no inherant right to a refund simply because he's changed his mind or bought something he really didn't want. To quote from the Georgia site you posted a link to..."Unless merchandise is marked "as is," most goods are sold with an "implied warranty of merchantability." If the implied warranty is violated, you should be entitled to receive a refund or exchange for the unsatisfactory goods.An implied warranty indicates that the merchandise is:Of at least average quality. Fit for the ordinary purpose for which such goods are used. Adequately packaged and labeled. In agreement with promises made on the product's label."If a vendor advertises that a product is "compatible with MSFS2004", for example, and it crashes when used in FS2004, then it's NOT merchantable, and the buyer has a RIGHT to a refund, regardless of what the vendor says on his website."Ah-ha", I hear you say, "then I'l just sell all my software as being 'as-is;, and I won't have that problem!" Sorry, but that doesn't work either. The courts have consistently held that the legislative intent of "as-is" exclusions was to allow retailers to dispose of used, returned, obsolete, or known-defective items, and that blanket "everything we sell is As-Is" claims are NOT legal.Richard

>He asks for a refund, "Sorry, didn't you see the 'no refund' policy?"<>>See if that happens to me I would call my bank and tell them I didn't get the product and they refund your money.<

>>>>>>>>>>>So let me see, it is not right for "them" to rip you off, but it's ok for you to commit Credit Card Fraud?I fail to see how that makes you any better than the company you claim is ripping you off! I seriously doubt Australian Law condones fraud no matter who commits it.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>Sorry, Ernie, but there's a couple of problems with your position.>>First, your links are all to STATE laws, while all on-line >transactions are covered by FEDERAL laws. On-line or not, the actual transaction will take place within the borders of a U.S. State or Territory that the business is based in.If you look on any online or ebusiness site, you will find something there that tells you where the transaction will occur.Go to the Avsim store right now, and you'll see the U.S. State those Transactions take place in. (appears to be Alabama).>Secondly, even the laws you refer to ONLY apply to refunds or >exchanges of *merchantable* products. Computer software qualifies as a merchantable product.>Nothing in any of those links denies a consumer the right to a refund for products that are defective or not as described. >>There's no question that a consumer has no inherant right to a refund simply because he's changed his mind or bought something he >really didn't want. >..>To quote from the Georgia site you posted a link to...>>"Unless merchandise is marked "as is," most goods are sold with >an "implied warranty of merchantability." If the implied warranty >is violated, >you should be entitled to receive a refund or exchange for the >unsatisfactory goods.Read a little closer please..Its says "refund *OR* exchange...".So a blanket no refund policy is legal in Georgia. >If a vendor advertises that a product is "compatible with >MSFS2004", for example, and it crashes when used in FS2004, >then it's NOT merchantable, and the buyer has a RIGHT to a refund, >regardless of what the vendor says on his website.I disagree, according to the Georgia section you quoted.If the vendor has a blanket no refund policy all the buyer would be entitled to is an exchange or replacement. In the case of software the buyer would be entitled to exchange their defective version for perhaps a patched version but not a refund.>Nothing in any of those links denies a consumer the right to a >refund for products that are defective or not as described. I think you need to read the relevent U.S. statutes again, cause your mistaken on this.Regards.Ernie.

>>So please explane how I commited fraud??????????<>....Just some customers have no back bone!<

>No, no chance. As someone who does a lot of credit card business, I >can asure you that the bank NEVER 'takes the hit' for this sort of >reversed >transaction. The vendor got charged back on his next >disbursement. My credit card company cheque every month includes >chargebacks from >transactions on which I got an approval code, but >the cardholders bank didn't complete the deal. I don't agree, its most likely your bank that took the hit.Put the pieces together.Perfect Flight (PF) doesn't make the Transaction, they contract that out to SWREG.SWREG is getting about 5% commission on every sale.If PF makes 10 only sales for the month, but all 10 customers get a refund. How much is SWREG's commission ? ZERO.That's twenty transactions made by SWREG for zero commission, you really think SWREG is gonna do that ? Besides SWREG can't give a refund without authorization from the vendor anyway, and no vendor in their right mind is going to let a 3rd party make an arbitrary refund decision on their behalf when they already have a strict no refund policy.It all points to your Bank most likely took the hit and will make up for your fraudulant claim's loss though fee's and interest rates.Regards.Ernie.

Rick:>No, no chance. As someone who does a lot of credit card business, I >can asure you that the bank NEVER 'takes the hit' for this sort of >reversed transaction. The vendor got charged back on his next >disbursement. My credit card company cheque every month includes >chargebacks from transactions on which I got an approval code, but >the cardholders bank didn't complete the deal. Ernie:>>I don't agree, its most likely your bank that took the hit.>>>>Put the pieces together.>>>>Perfect Flight (PF) doesn't make the Transaction, they contract >>that out to SWREG.So? All that means is that when SWREG gets hit with chargebacks from the bank, they withold the amount they are charged back from their next disbursement to PF. >>That's twenty transactions made by SWREG for zero commission, you >>really think SWREG is gonna do that ? I assure you that NO procesing company is going to give a vendor a contract wherein they have to absorb any chargebacks! Of course SWREG is going to pass the chargebacks back through to PF.>>It all points to your Bank most likely took the hit.Oh, and by the way, not "my" bank - it was someone else who said they'd done this. I wouldn't be in this position, because I don't do business with criminals. And make no bones about it - a vendor who refuses a legitimate refund because of some bogus "no refunds' policy is committing a crime just as much as a consumer who tries to get a fraudulent refund.Richard

>>>>>>>>>>>Quote from your post!"See if that happens to me I would call my bank and tell them I didn't get the product and they refund your money."But you DID get the product, you just didn't like it.<<<<<<<<<<

calm down man. ;-)Andrew

>Is it possible to sell the products that are purchased online and downloaded?;)...Cheers,Gosta.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

Every time my wife decides to have a Garage Sale, I sell software I rarely use.And if some vendor wants to sue me for it, come and get me. I'll even give you my address.Illegal... Bahhh.....Tell that to all the stores in the mall, selling used xbox, playstation, and pc games galore. You don't think that all those software companies wouldn't be suing them if it was illegal.If I want to sell it, all I have to do is remove it from my system and sell it.Now, perhaps all you legal eagles can actually find a case where someone removed it from his/her hard drive, then sold it, and then was found guilty of selling. If not, go away, and let the person sell what he wants.(Note, if he/she does not remove it from their hard drive, that is entirely different.)So, anyone want to buy my Original Disks and manual for MSFS2002 Pro. make me an offer. :-)And maybe someone can get a finders fee for turning in Amazon for illegal trade, as it seems they have no problem selling MSFS2002 USED software:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/store...7361004-7519300 Regards,Joehttp://aboutpolitics.net/images/bannerav.gif.About Politics.net - FORUMShttp://pub162.ezboard.com/baboutpolitics.Contribute to the Richard Harvey Scholarship Fund.http://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtml

slapshot:>>Your blind, dumb or you cant read! Go back and read my post again! >>I gave clear reasons why I did what I did! And no ( I just didn't >>like it ) was not part of that!>>One more time for the dummy!>>The reasons are:>>>>1. I didn't get what they claimed the product had!>>2. The web advertisement was misleading>>3. They took away my right to a refund! and then would not reply to >>emails!>>>>So I took my own actions! It was 100% legal! Sorry, slapshot, no it wasn't, it was credit card fraud. If the product was not as advertised, then yes, you had a clear legal right to a refund. If the vendor refused you one (or just ignored you) then you had a right to take legal action against him to get your money back. You did NOT have a right to make a false statement to the bank, which you did when you claimed not to have gotten your product. Ironically, you didn't even need to do that - you could have truthfully told the bank that the product was not as advertised, and they'd still have worked with you to reverse the charge - but telling them you never got it was fraud. In fact, you're worse off than you were before - if PF chooses to go after you for the fraudulent statement to your bank which resulted in the chargeback, you would probably not even be allowed to introduce a claim that the product was unmerchantable, because that wasn't the basis for your claiming the reversal. Since you got your charge reversed based on the claim that "I never got it", all PF would have to show was that yes, you did get it, to get the charge put back on your card. Any attempt by you to say "but it wasn't as advertised" would probably be ruled inadmissable, because the time to bring that up was when you asked for the reversal. By lying to the bank then, you've tainted your case - probably irreversably.Richard

Ernie:>>Go to the Avsim store right now, and you'll see the U.S. State >>those Transactions take place in. (appears to be Alabama).Doesn't matter. The FCC has claimed overall jurisdiction on on-line sales. For example, they have forbidden States from levying sales tax on out-of-state transactions.Richard:>Secondly, even the laws you refer to ONLY apply to refunds or >exchanges of *merchantable* products. Ernie:>>Computer software qualifies as a merchantable product.Only if it works. An item - physical or software - that doesn't work, or doesn't work as advertised, or isn't of acceptable quality, isn't merchantable.>>Its says "refund *OR* exchange...".>>So a blanket no refund policy is legal in Georgia. >>>>If a vendor advertises that a product is "compatible with >>MSFS2004", for example, and it crashes when used in FS2004, >>then it's NOT merchantable, and the buyer has a RIGHT to a refund, >>regardless of what the vendor says on his website.>>>>I disagree, according to the Georgia section you quoted.>>>>If the vendor has a blanket no refund policy all the buyer would be >>entitled to is an exchange or replacement. In the case of software >>the buyer would be entitled to exchange their defective version for >>perhaps a patched version but not a refund.IF you can issue the buyer a patch or revision that brings it to merchantable condition, then yes, that would work. However, if a software product is unmerchantable because it's not of acceptable quality, or because the website just overhyped its capabilities, then a patch won't do it, and you ARE going to be legally liable to give the buyer a refund.Richard

>>>>>>>>>>>Ironically, you didn't even need to do that - you could have truthfully told the bank that the product was not as advertised, and they'd still have worked with you to reverse the charge - but telling them you never got it was fraud.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<