Hmm, a patch? Who knows? But old sceneries are supposed to work and they may like to see a case where one doesn't. At least to prevent the bug from next version (assuming they don't rewrite the terrain system).

Hi arrex.Yes! I do confrim this will crash without addon mesh... oddly that good news, because it eliminates addon mesh as the root cause.I tried an experiment suggested by John Cillis... I replaced lookuplc.bgl, worldlc.bgl and worldwc.bgl with the FS2002 defaults... but the crash conditions still exist.I'm attaching a FLT and WX file for GardaLake to reproduce the problem. With the italy landpack, it will crash with default mesh.At this point I still believe it is caused by our addon landclasses and steep terrain, in the winter season. I'll keep pecking at it.Dick

I get the crash in Winter with Terrain Texture Size set to High, but *not* when set to Medium. Is this the same for you?

=double-post=

Try reading some of the posts at FSGenesis forum=Fs2004--replies to one person having mountain-winter CTD's--several people seem to be having similar problems--some with apparently pure FS9 installs

Hi Dick, I have tried your situation, I get no CTD, I have 0% landclass installed. With default fs2004 mesh no CTD also at 85% or 100% mesh slider. Texture size to MAX in fs2004.3rd party:-I have 0% landclass installed at all-I have installed these since the release:With all these Mesh below installed no CTD at 85% or 100% mesh sliderhttp://www.simviation.com/terrain.htmhttp://avsim.com/terrafish/All Orlando Mesh from avsim.PAI Installed NO CTD, traffic to 100%ALL PAI AirlinerALL Afcad only from their official release not others.ThanksChris Willis[link:fsw.simflight.com/FSWMenuFsSim.html]Clouds And Addons For MsFs

Hi Chris.You're right. The crash only occurs when the above mentioned "Italylandpack-versione4" is installed. It is definitely caused by the interaction of the addon landclass, the steep sloping, and the season.If I had the RAW files and the INF file, I might isolate the offending landclass value, or the problem with the landclass BGL. I had suspected values 1, 132, and 133...but I can make landclass and place it in the same folder as the Italylandpack.bgl ( named zzTestlc, so it is loaded last ), and the sim will not crash, and displays my landclass just fine.So I can override the Italylandpack, even though it's installed, and the sim is fine... so far.I'd have to test all 256 values to see if I can force a crash, and even then I don't know if the problem is landclass value or the BGL itself.Right now, I'm suspecting a problem with the BGL... not the landclass values. In TMFViewer I can see the BGL must have used tmfmerge because of it's shape. There is a much better way to make irregularly shaped landclasses, using multisource, and a "dummy" world.raw file as a backdrop.Dick

"Hmm, a patch? Who knows? But old sceneries are supposed towork and they may like to see a case where one doesn't. Atleast to prevent the bug from next version (assuming theydon't rewrite the terrain system)."As stated, only if the addon in question followed the SDK, which we all know many find workarouds for addons because of limited abilities or late SDKs. I looks like from Dicks experimenst there may be some changes in this. I fly 80% of the time in AK and BC and it is winter now and I haven't had a CTD yet (knock on wood), but then again, I only have a few 3rd party landclass files in and a few of my own, with no mesh.As Dick stated, MS won't spend the time to ensure the sim works with 3rd party addons. Hope a solution is found for you guys with the problems.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VACougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviation[link:www.cgrmthelos.com]Cougar Mountain Helicopters

Very hard to apply logic to this situation with everyFS2004 installation & hardware in the world different. How do youeliminate all the variables?Peter Sydney Australia

Hi Michael.If the owners of these "CTD" problems simply zip the FLT and WX files of a saved flight, almost all of these problems could be pin-pointed... because some users are able to run true default setups, and do have fault-free hardware. So we can verify the existant conditions of the crashes.It's not enough to say you have a CTD.. or even where it is located. Just zip and attach the tiny FLT and WX files, and we can see for ourselves.My first impression when these problems surfaced was that the sim was at fault. Now, I find the sim is never at fault. Never. There's too many people running fault-free. I would guess that less than 5% of FS9ers are having these types of problems, and they are either using addons ( or addons that were never removed properly ), or they have bad hardware ( usually memory sticks or a BIOS problem with the motherboard ).If an addon is causing a crash, it's the addon's fault. In the above example, it is the addon ( thankfully not arrex's hardware ). I can duplicate the problem. If I had the sourcefiles for the BGL, I probably could fix the problem.Dick

All,If you're having trouble with the SEASONAL CTD, then there exists a "German" solution--that essentially replaces airport aprons with a single texture (rather than blending in with potentially problematic landclass textures).Holger has taken the time to make the solution available for us here at the AVSIM forum. Take a look at: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...64441&mode=full .Of course, this is not the only CTD problem that people are reporting.Best,Mike MacKuen

HI Dick,Back before the seasons changed I was getting a few CTDs here and there with the US National landclass Project. The problem seemed at that time to be isolated to urban textures, mostly juxtaposing 101/102, 105/106, . . . seemed to be problem with the wet and dry versions of the textures in proximity. This seemed to fix some of the problems for a while and I thought I had the cause nailed down. I just didn't mix the wet and dry textures in the same area.But, while it seemed to fix it most of the time, not all of the time. So, maybe you might investigate that. ??I presume the new Terrain SDK will fix . . .-------Justinhttp://www.fsgenesis.netHigh Quality Scenery for FS200x

Hi Justin.That would certainly be worth looking into.Right now, I'd like to see FLT file examples of CTDs of the default scenery. If we can determine there are no default CTDs, then we can investigate how we make our landclasses.The second step would be to positively ID landclasses that cause CTDs. arexx has found one, but I don't believe he can give me the RAW and INF files used to create that BGL... which is needed if we are to determine the root cause.I don't know your process for making your US landclass file, but if it involves tmfmerge, then I am suspicious that it may cause these crashes. I make all my landclass files as MultiSourced. There is no need to then merge the tmfs.Here's an example:=========================================[Destination]DestDir = "."DestBaseFileName = "TestLC"UseSourceDimensions = 0NorthLat = 47.8125SouthLat = 45.0000EastLong = 15.0000WestLong = 7.5000[source]Type = MultiSourceNumberOfSources = 3[source1]Type = ClassU8SourceDir ="."SourceFile = "TestLC.raw"Lon = 7.5000Lat = 47.8125NumOfCellsPerLine = 257NumOfLines = 257CellXdimensionDeg=0.0146484375CellYdimensionDeg=0.010986328125[source2]Type = ClassU8SourceDir ="."SourceFile = "TestLC.raw"Lon = 11.25Lat = 47.8125NumOfCellsPerLine = 257NumOfLines = 257CellXdimensionDeg=0.0146484375CellYdimensionDeg=0.010986328125[source3]Type = ClassU8SourceDir ="."SourceFile = "transparent.raw"Lon = -180.0000Lat = 90.0000NumOfCellsPerLine = 100NumOfLines = 100CellXdimensionDeg = 3.636363636363636363636363636CellYdimensionDeg = 1.818181818181818181818181818====================================The transparent.raw file is a 100x100 file composed of value 254, and covers the whole world... that's what joins the other raw files. Some designers have been trapped into believing a RAW source must be 256x256 or 257x257. That is not true. I could use a 2x2 pixel source, and using a multisourced backdrop of the whole world, I can size it to cover any area I want. It only needs to be rectangular, with known dimensions.TestLC.raw is 257x257, but that was just a convenience as it helps me to track down a specific LOD13 if a problem arises.The destination defines a rectangular area I wish the BGL to cover... that should be at an even LOD5 extent... although the size can be of any rectangular multiple of LOD5s. 3x5 LOD5s is valid, as is 20x1 LOD5s.The destination can be larger than the TestLC.raw extents, and there is an advantage to doing just that, as that eliminates a non-blended border to the landclass. The world tranparent.raw allows value 254 to edge the data and blend seamlessly to underlying landclass.All this is a bit off topic, but I'm suspecting this method of compiling a landclass might avoid CTD problems.Dick

HI Dick,USLC is one INF comprising 147 LOD5 quadrant/RAW Bitmaps. I compile the whole thing at once into one BGL. Not using TMFMERGE.-------Justinhttp://www.fsgenesis.netHigh Quality Scenery for FS200x

Hi Justin.That's a good way. If you "surrounded" the source with a world transparent, and trimmed it with the destination bounds to a bit bigger than the US, as a multisourced INF, there would be no blending issues at the edges... because all the edges would be transparent.The Italy landpack that arexx provided as a link is obviously using tmfmerge as the BGL is not retangular, but a mosaic of LOD5s.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/56093.jpgDick