Short review after 1 day of usage

[Kosta 122]

Just a note about FPS and performance: been testing it a day now, I can say one thing:I uninstalled it for now and probably going to cancel the subscription in couple of days (I'm gonna try and contact the developers but not expecting much).Reasons being:FSUIPC problematic (crashes).FSForce doesn't work.Problem with controllers (there is a fix undergoing and a workaround).Shade not working (developer contacted)....So, I will try more, but the end of the line is:The FPS performance is basically the same. There might be a FPS more or less, but it's not like it's 50% faster. Or even 20%...Fluidity? For me the same thing as with FSX... not a bit more fluid.Water? Yeah sure, it looks better than on default FSX, but REX fills that void. The question is how it's gonna look with REX for P3D...If I use the same profile in Nvidia Inspector as for FSX, I get very strangely looking menus - that includes using even the simplest 8xS. Seriously, I need more AA than simple 4x or 8x Multisampling. So dear LM, you need to:Get some performance numbers up - session to session P3D vs FSX, there must be a serious increase. Usage of modern hardware is a must (without a need to buy a 2nd GPU...).Decent startup screen (not a load into a flight), which also isn't going bad-looking with a bit of supersampling.Of the top of the head now - there are probably many other suggestions - but for now, that's it!

[Jean-Paul 91]

Word Not Allowed, did you disable Bathymetry, and use 1024 ground textures just as in fsx ? For me, performance in P3D is significantly better.Here are a few shots, not meant to be artistic I took tonight over KSEA. All were with max aircraft traffic, max scenery complexity, Autogen one notch below max except the downtown ones with max autogen . Of course, there are a few niggles, some of them major for me as well but well, things can only get better

[David Roch 250]

Wow !! Very sharp indeed with some nice fps!Thanks for sharing Jean-Paul :--)

[Kosta 122]

Word Not Allowed, did you disable Bathymetry, and use 1024 ground textures just as in fsx ? For me, performance in P3D is significantly better.Here are a few shots, not meant to be artistic I took tonight over KSEA. All were with max aircraft traffic, max scenery complexity, Autogen one notch below max except the downtown ones with max autogen . Of course, there are a few niggles, some of them major for me as well but well, things can only get better

Yes, I disabled Bathymetry. No, I used 4096 textures. But I use 4096 in FSX too, forced (due to NGX requiring them).I measured performance with the same aircraft, unlocked FPS, KSEA, just by the feeling of an eye, I was getting 50-60fps around KSEA with both sims. I was not benchmarking. Though I could use the FSXMark11 if I installed MS 737 into P3D...I do get 30fps everywhere, with all the high settings, but I do in P3D too. I'm not after 30fps... it's about how much one is better than another.I tried 30fps locked also, and was not surprised by fluidity, as already mentioned. I also tried everything cranked up with P3D, and was still getting 30fps everywhere I tried.But remember: this is with default aircraft. Default textures. Default scenery. Default mesh. Default everything.Give me addon, NGX, REX, UTX, GEX and all that in HQ with LOD 7.5, and it's gonna be crawling, much like FSX. That is why we need hardware optimization and utilization, to make the most of it.

[Chock 3,275]

Yup, I think it is important to note that P3D is running a lot more data than FSX by default, i.e. much more terrain data (ocean floors for a kick off) and much higher resolution textures. So if it matches FSX in FPS when doing that, which it does on my system (and that is with REX installed by the way), then it is indicative of being much better optimised than FSX, and if you drop those bits off P3D, it does get significantly higher FPS than FSX. Al

[newtie 126]

Just a note about FPS and performance: been testing it a day now, I can say one thing:I uninstalled it for now and probably going to cancel the subscription in couple of days (I'm gonna try and contact the developers but not expecting much).Reasons being:FSUIPC problematic (crashes).FSForce doesn't work.Problem with controllers (there is a fix undergoing and a workaround).Shade not working (developer contacted)....So, I will try more, but the end of the line is:The FPS performance is basically the same. There might be a FPS more or less, but it's not like it's 50% faster. Or even 20%...Fluidity? For me the same thing as with FSX... not a bit more fluid.Water? Yeah sure, it looks better than on default FSX, but REX fills that void. The question is how it's gonna look with REX for P3D...If I use the same profile in Nvidia Inspector as for FSX, I get very strangely looking menus - that includes using even the simplest 8xS. Seriously, I need more AA than simple 4x or 8x Multisampling. So dear LM, you need to:Get some performance numbers up - session to session P3D vs FSX, there must be a serious increase. Usage of modern hardware is a must (without a need to buy a 2nd GPU...).Decent startup screen (not a load into a flight), which also isn't going bad-looking with a bit of supersampling.Of the top of the head now - there are probably many other suggestions - but for now, that's it!

I'm not sure why anybody who has FSX tuned correctly and has the money invested in that tuning/addon procedure with its commensurate costs would get involved in this, unless LM intends to market this to the FSX community in some way that clearly exceeds what they already have.

[shivers9 370]

I'm not sure why anybody who has FSX tuned correctly and has the money invested in that tuning/addon procedure with its commensurate costs would get involved in this, unless LM intends to market this to the FSX community in some way that clearly exceeds what they already have.

You may not have read all that is avail here and on other forums. Most of us are not going to be throwing FSX out but with changes coming such as DX10 or DX11 then it is something to watch for the future. Best guess is Flight is not going to be much to crow about.

[SpiritFlyer 741]

Nothwithstanding the superiority of FSX for me because of REX, SHADE and Track IR etc, Prepare3D does have a performance jump, or perhaps, I should say, it has raised the bottom end substantially, as to what the FPS might fall to when under duress. Otherwise smooth is smooth, and fast for me in both sims. However, and this is HUGE, no Prepare3D crashes or signs of instability. It needs to catch up and pass by on the FSX improvements most of us enjoy and have helped shepherd along, but give it a bit of time and I expect the visual advantages will switch from FSX to Prepar3D. Rome was not built in a day. I'm impressed with what has been accomplished by LM so far and optimistic on what is to come.. Kind regards,

[newtie 126]

...no Prepare3D crashes or signs of instability... I have no crashes or instability with my current FSX setup. ...give it a bit of time and I expect the visual advantages will switch from FSX to Prepar3D... Maybe. ...Rome was not built in a day... FSX is already built and a grand city it is. ...I'm impressed with what has been accomplished by LM so far... I'm impressed with REX, FTX, PMDG 737 and countless other FSX developers and testers (including you Stephen) who have done some outright impossible things to/in FSX. I don't have to be optimistic about the future because I have it all now. Cheers,Mark

[shivers9 370]

...no Prepare3D crashes or signs of instability... I have no crashes or instability with my current FSX setup. ...give it a bit of time and I expect the visual advantages will switch from FSX to Prepar3D... Maybe. ...Rome was not built in a day... FSX is already built and a grand city it is. ...I'm impressed with what has been accomplished by LM so far... I'm impressed with REX, FTX, PMDG 737 and countless other FSX developers and testers (including you Stephen) who have done some outright impossible things to/in FSX. I don't have to be optimistic about the future because I have it all now. Cheers,Mark

Well if I had all that going on, I would not care about the future either. Enjoy!!

[newtie 126]

Well if I had all that going on, I would not care about the future either. Enjoy!!

Will do.Now if I can just get the EFB boys off their ****** and export .rte files to the PMDG 737 FMC like pretty much everyone else can currently do, I'll probably vibrate off the planet.

[simmerhead 515]

I still haven't tried P3D yet, as I am awaiting my new i7 rig, but for me the choice is very simple. I'm going to run both FSX and P3D. The only reason I will keep FSX is because of all the goodies I've got working on it at present. No flying for me unless I can have TrackIR and my Saitek cockpit up and running flawlessly. Why P3D? Very simple. The Lockheed team seems dedicated and passionate about what they do, and they target professional users. Also, they have shown great initiative and interaction with their customers and potential customers. A company that keeps me updated on the progress of their development etc. keeps me very happy and excited, unlike Microsoft who goes out of their way to choke my passion for flight simming. Also Lockheed seems very welcoming of developers, which after all is the cornerstone of this hobby. Without addons I wouldn't be flying since the level of realism I require wouldn't be there. P3D is no revolution, but it is certainly many steps in the right direction.

[David Roch 250]

Very well said! :--)

[Highiron 21]

Seriously dude... Given the nature and scope of Lockheed Martin and it's Skunk Works Division as a company, do you really seriously believe that they of all companies would put themselves in a position for litigation if they themselves were not confident of their rights and position in regards to the ESP portion of content that they themselves had an involvement in the development of, in conjunction with Microsoft? Lockheed Martin is a "big boy" and not some fringe company trying to bang out a flight simulator any way they can to make ends meet. Since we are not and likely never will be privy to all the former and current arrangements between Lockheed Martin and Microsoft in respect to ESP, the fact that Lockheed Martin is offering it as available is good enough for myself to have confidence in my ability to use it and for them to offer it. Your issue has been brought up before in the past and Lockheed Martin has made it very clear that there is no issue with what they are doing and are getting border line peeved with the insinuation. Do you really believe Microsoft is going to sue Lockheed Martin? If so, give your head a shake. Who do you think gets the majority of contract programing and coding work for the aerospace industry? Apple? Your statement implies you know something more about the legitimacy of Prepar3d's use than Lockheed Martin it's self. Quite a feat for an outsider looking in I must say! Rather than slamming forum members for their participation in the program, why don't you go and ask the question about it's legitimacy to Lockheed Martin directly? They will gladly give you an answer, and it will not be ambiguous.

[alainneedle1 97]

In this post Jim Rhoads explained what Prepar3D was for http://www.simforums.com/forums/prepar3d_topic40285.html As far as MS doing something about it....you never know.

[Jean-Paul 91]

404 - File or directory not found. The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

Alain,Or the link is wrong, or the thread is gone. Strange how some of you guys seem to have an issue with us enjoying Oops ! finding better performance with P3D than with FSX. I wonder why ?

[alainneedle1 97]

Alain,Or the link is wrong, or the thread is gone. Strange how some of you guys seem to have an issue with us enjoying Oops ! finding better performance with P3D than with FSX. I wonder why ?

The thread is gone, just to make something clear here... I have no problems what so ever with Prepar3D or LM, as far as I am concern they can do what ever they want, no skin off my nose, if you enjoy or find better perf. in Prepar3D knock yourself out.....hoping it will stay like that, I would hate to see you all left high'n'dry at any time, with no warning because MS does not agree with the fact that LM as re-branded the consumer instead of renegotiating the deal to re-write the T and C's as Simon Evans (a poster from Aerosoft) pointed it out with good reasons...but MS may not care also....

[Jean-Paul 91]

Simon Evans Snave himself ! He's been thrown out of every forum except Aerosoft's. Come on Alain, don't be silly.

[alainneedle1 97]

Simon Evans Snave himself ! He's been thrown out of every forum except Aerosoft. Come on Alain, don't be silly.

It's not about been thrown out of every forum because he was rude or else it's about what he's saying...does it make sense or not...to me it does make a lot of sense, there is what is called "Spirit of the law" and the same apply to a contract... http://en.wikipedia....irit_of_the_law By the way Snave was answering a post I made on Aerosoft forum... http://forum.aerosof...ic/page__st__40 As I said before, no skin of my nose...

[Jean-Paul 91]

For me, the "Spirit" sums up to this :

Hi Guys, As someone that has been involved with the community for well over 15 years (including being a member of Avsim in another guise - mainly lurking, not posting much!), I know that this is part of the grass roots of the passion and a big reason why I want to engage with you all. We WANT to engage with the community and be as open as we can because the team is just as passionate about the product as you are. Having a strong and vibrant development and user community is important to push the boundaries of the product and make it even better. If we are collaborative, we can concentrate on building the core product and let others worry about the majority of the cool widgets. (We will still make cool widgets though!) Thank you for reaching out to the developers that we haven't been able to engage with yet. The great thing is that there are so many! The bad thing for my calendar and meeting planning is that there are so many! For those that are out there, feel free to send me a note at the Prepar3D website, or post your questions as well if there is anything we can do to assist. Thanks again! Regards,John NicolPrepar3D

If there is a problem, it is up to LM to settle it with MS (or the other way around).

[alainneedle1 97]

For me, the "Spirit" sums up to this : If there is a problem, it is up to LM to settle it with MS (or the other way around).

My point from the beginning, I don't care what they are doing, I'm sure both side have a boat full of lawyers if something need to be settle.....

[Jean-Paul 91]

So we agree. And if it needs to be settled, it won't be in these forums.

[shivers9 370]

My point from the beginning, I don't care what they are doing, I'm sure both side have a boat full of lawyers if something need to be settle.....

This entire subject as well as the entire Flight forum has become the "Playground of the Insane"! I can not believe that Tom and AVSIM allow it to go on. This is not a law school forum! Good God! people stop and think....Why on earth would a guy from LM named John, who has a great job and career going just one day decide to come to a forum that has the reputation of being nuts in the first place and blow that entire thing by getting his milti-billion company sued so you and I can have a home sim to enjoy. Guys you got to get a hold on reality!! Some of the same players right here in this forum destroyed any chance we ever had in interfacing with MS developers and you are runnig a high chance of doing the same thing with LM. If AVSIM cares anything about the future of flight sim they will put an end to this dribble from want to be lawyers.

[Jean-Paul 91]

This entire subject as well as the entire Flight forum has become the "Playground of the Insane"! I can not believe that Tom and AVSIM allow it to go on. This is not a law school forum! Good God! people stop and think....Why on earth would a guy from LM named John, who has a great job and career going just one day decide to come to a forum that has the reputation of being nuts in the first place and blow that entire thing by getting his milti-billion company sued so you and I can have a home sim to enjoy. Guys you got to get a hold on reality!! Some of the same players right here in this forum destroyed any chance we ever had in interfacing with MS developers and you are runnig a high chance of doing the same thing with LM. If AVSIM cares anything about the future of flight sim they will put an end to this dribble from want to be lawyers.

+1

[Highiron 21]

I would hate to see you all left high'n'dry at any time, with no warning because MS does not agree with the fact that LM as re-branded the consumer instead of renegotiating the deal to re-write the T and C's as Simon Evans (a poster from Aerosoft) pointed it out with good reasons...but MS may not care also....

Your concern is noted and fair. However, the wonder of the whole thing is that it uses the FSX content that already exists as we currently employ it. The argument would hold more weight if it required me to purchase all new material to run on the Prepare3d platform. Should it become the "scorched Earth" concept you predict will ensue, we are only out the investment for the use of the platform its self, not the content we use within it. I spend 100 times the cost to use it on coffee and meals out every month, and I sure know where that ends up, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying it none the less.

Seriously dude. They need to change their EULA wording then! Until that happens it can not be a viable consumer entertainment product. Everyone invest their time in this then the legal ease pull the plug?

It is not that simple. The EULA's are only as good as the boardroom discussions that wish to enforce or wave them. Have you ever had a police officer give you a warning where perhaps under the law a ticket was due? Boardroom politics is no different. As users of the platform, we are the "end user". It does not state that this is the EULA agreement with Lockheed Martin and Microsoft; (and this is what gets Lockheed Martin, rightfully, upset). As I fail to see any publicly released terms of use of ESP between Lockheed Martin and Microsoft coupled with the statement from a Lockheed Martin representative that all is good, the argument is over for me. The statement when I read it apply's to Prepar3d licensed developers who use it as a core for their projects and need to include the platform with their product. This is not the case in any situation involving third party development of products used within it. PMDG, Orbix, Aerosoft, Captain Sim, and the likes, do not need to include the Prepare3d platform to create or sell their products. If I on the other hand, create a full blown 747 simulator and have the Prepar3d engine as it's core for functionality and is part of the sold package, it states I can, as long as it is not for personal/consumer entertainment products. So I can not sell the system to you, so you can have some fun with your friends in your garage. It's there to plug a loop hole in various legal systems that developers may try to use to skirt around licensing issues and to protect commercial enterprises, so it's not likely going to disappear from their EULA. If Lockheed Martin is offering you to use it, knowing what you are using it for, take it or leave it. It's up to you.

" We WANT to engage with the community and be as open as we can because the team is just as passionate about the product as you are. Having a strong and vibrant development and user community is important to push the boundaries of the product and make it even better."

This is "Us" and "Developers".

"If we are collaborative, we can concentrate on building the core product"

This is Lockheed Martin, us, and developers.

"and let others worry about the majority of the cool widgets."

This is directed to "third party developers".

"Having a strong and vibrant development and user community is important to push the boundaries of the product and make it even better."

This is the most important statement of all. The truth in business is the "Field of Dreams" concept. Build it, and they will come. To make it better they need us, and we need them. Developers spend a lot of time trying to decipher the ebb and flow of the direction of the Flight Simming community. An ever moving target no doubt. The health and vitality of their companies and the people who work for them depend on it. Mr. Randazzo of PMDG has stated that they are not likely to be moving in the direction of the M.S. Flight release after having meetings with M.S. Staffers. This is not concrete but indicates something major would have to have changed since said meeting and the release of Flight. Some of the development team had also spent some time with their 737 NGX project within Prepar3d, and I doubt it was for s**ts and giggles. We are all already aware of Orbix's involvement. Mathijs Kok of Aerosoft has stated they are allowing their products to be exported into Prepar3d by their users without breach of the EULA. Mr. Kok is a smart business man, and I have no doubt he will be watching how many users are moving his products into Prepar3d. The jury is still out for Aerosoft's support of Flight, and I'm sure other developers are also unsure which way to go. Not a good business position to be in. At some point they must choose, and that will be based on user demand, that has yet to be established. The flight simming community and developers are both waiting to see who's going to blink first. The stakes are high for all involved, hence these discussions. Truth is, I want to continue to buy and support products from PMDG, Aerosoft, Captain Sim, Carenado, FSDT, Flightbeam Studios, Fly Tampa, Orbix, and the other multitude of quality vendors, and I all want them on my platform of choice, just like everybody else. So if one wants to have a hand in that process, you have to stand behind something at some point. I have a huge sum of money tied up into FSX, but at some point it will move on, and to a certain extent, we all have a vote in the direction of that progress by what we choose to stand by tomorrow. The developers within reason, will follow. At this point, as I look forward, I'm starting to lean towards Prepar3d. My reasons are numberous, but above all, I believe to be pragamatic. Seeing a full to slight non commital leaning by developers re-enforces my theories.