Independent - in fact, it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the XP10 cities/suburban scenery... the ground scenery just looks too "plastic".

so it isn't just me then..

In X-Plane 10, I have to dial back all the additional features like HDR and volumetric clouds to get acceptable frame rates so even if they did impact on the building density they're not available to me. Furthermore, there are no tree/road/object density settings that deliver a realistic or even "plausible" depiction of Seattle's urban sprawl. At the settings which deliver the best balance of frame rates for me I don't actually hardly see any buildings at all where there is supposed to be a major US city.

The question is why did they not include the urban landscape of Seattle in the demo ?1. Is it to reduce quantity of content to improve performance in the demo ?or2. Shift focus away from the lack of urban detail to the few improved things, like clouds or detailed roads or the night lighting effects or the only real representation of reality - the airport facility.No matter what the answer is, it is somewhat misleading at best. But again, the release is a demo, still in beta stage - perhaps a bit too early to conclude anything concrete as yet.Were we led to believe that if one could run v9 on a given machine one should be able to run v10 ? I don't know but thought I'd ask.

Not hard to believe at all. It's a product, on a shelf, I can take it or leave it. I'm fully up to speed on that, thank you.The problem we have though here is that our shelf in the global software supermarket is very, very small. It isn't really possible to overlook a major release from the main franchises because there are ONLY TWO main franchises in civil flight simulation.From my perspective, XP10 is a missed opportunity. They had years with the market to themselves since FSX was released, and even with the knowledge that the Aces team had been canned they failed to capitalise on that opportunity and deliver a sock-blowing-off moment. I read the pre-release hype, drooled over the pre-release screenshots and now right at the point where I can buy this thing, I have found out that actually it isn't actually anything like the hype promised. That is what I mean about the "emperors new clothes" - Laminar promised the best thing since sliced bread and delivered the empty green fields of Seattle.

Austin has made millions from x plane since 1994. Missing this so called "opportunity" you speak of is, I'm sure, no skin off his nose. The man buys sports cars and planes because he's in the mood. He's an animal lover and he walked into a dog shelter and gave them $1.5 million dollars.Safe to say Austin is doing just fine, and will continue to be just fine.

so it isn't just me then..

No, there's TWO of you! Maybe a few more. Doesn't really compare to the thousands, if not 10's of thousands that have alreay purchased x plane.lol

so it isn't just me then..

No

Oh please, it looks fine from 5000 feet.

Not really. The detail starts to fall apart the closer you get to the ground, and things get even worse when you start plopping auto generated objects on top of it.

he walked into a dog shelter and gave them $1.5 million dollars.

A big pity then that he didn't hire 1.5 million dollars worth of scenery artists!

A big pity then that he didn't hire 1.5 million dollars worth of scenery artists!

Shame to see you think that way. You might want to get your priorities adjusted.

The detail starts to fall apart the closer you get to the ground, and things get even worse when you start plopping auto generated objects on top of it.

And in X-Plane 10 the auto-generated objects plopped down all over the place look better? I'll have to remember that when I'm wondering as to why the electricity pylons march across freeways and railway lines, roads and railroads appear in strange formations etc. etc.Now I know you really are trolling me.

Shame to see you think that way. You might want to get your priorities adjusted.

If I cared about dogs I'd be in a dog forum

I agree that FSX does a better job, even out of the box, of depicting urban areas compared to the current early version of X-P 10.However there are some things to consider, the most important being that the guys at Laminar are certainly aware of the problem since this the issue that currently gets most complaints in the community right now. So I'm certain it's high in their list of things to improve.Regarding performance vs urban density, 2-3 things to consider:1) These are early versions of X-P 10, no optimized at all. Performance in future releases will _necessarily_ go up from now on, it can't go down.2) As noted in other posts, the poor urban density look is _in part_ due to the fact that there are small houses where there should be big buildings (decreasing effective building density and leaving big patches of green) and also that generic grass textures are used in urban areas where some generic urban textures would look better. So IMO there's a big potential of improving urban density outlook without a penalty in performance.Marco

I see a real oxymoron going on in all these xplane threads.It would seem that xplane of the past has been a real nitch product with a relatively small band of loyal users relative to the whole sim market.Now it seems xplane 10 is viewed as finally something that will take it out of that nitch market to a wider base, yet when the wider base checks in with comments and critics they are not accepted.I agree-the potential is there-but also listen to the wider base if you want them to come over!As a flight sim enthusiast for over 30 years and user of every flight sim that has come out(and not any official mod position here-this is my personal opinion) I would say xplane fans-start listening if you wish to take this product past its past nitch market-otherwise it will crawl right back under the rock it has been for years!From my perspective:1) Yes-the ui is not difficult-I don't find it a big deal-but it seems lots in the mass market do. If you want that mass market-make it easier-what is the big deal-a ui has to be one of the easier things to do!2) Yes-I have tried and ignore every default aircraft in xplane and consider them below par for what is expected today -but consider that many will use these defaults to judge the sim and walk away from it based on this experience-that is not good for xplane!3) I understand the fs series has an advantage-problably due to a contract with Jepp data-to have all airport buildings, all worldwide approaches, and years of making buildings for cities included. However, that is what most mainstream simmers are used to-it has been around for almost 10 years. Let's admit it is a problem for xplane and try to get a solution as soon as possible! Simmers are patient if they can see there will be a solution.4) Yes I can get more autogen, buildings, and scenery on another sim with better performance right now. I can't get as nice as of a flight performance out of the flight model, nice looks of the scenery objects, and weather as I can with xplane 10. Let's admit the differences rather than trying to rationalize that they don't exist!I could go on and on-but going into a see no evil, hear no evil ,speak no evil mode is not the answer in my opinion to making this sim mainstream.I believe an open admission to shortcomings while showing strengths do more to encourage people to get involved than a defensive posturing that they do not exist.This all imho!

And in X-Plane 10 the auto-generated objects plopped down all over the place look better?

They're not "plopped down all over the place" the way they are in FSX but are laid out logically and plausibly. And, yes, I think it does look better.

I'll have to remember that when I'm wondering as to why the electricity pylons march across freeways and railway lines, roads and railroads appear in strange formations etc. etc.

You'd have a point if anybody argued that XP10 is perfect.

No, there's TWO of you! Maybe a few more. Doesn't really compare to the thousands, if not 10's of thousands that have alreay purchased x plane.lol

Make that 3 with davew_uk.Your comment is ignorant at best. Yes, only a few people on here have stated the same view on a single topic on a small forum. Release the game to the masses and you'll quickly find that those 'few' with the same opinion escalates and multiplies quite well. I would hazard a guess that perhaps 25% of the people on this topic have agreed with the same opinion.So tell me, what's 25% of the '10's of thousands that have alreay purchased x plane'.I could even go further and say that being that this is on an X-Plane sub forum (naturally with more XP '######'), one could expect a higher % of people who share different views from yourself when it gets released publicly for everyone to see. I believe I came across someone disregarding the players of FSX, either here or elsewhere. Do you know how many people, currently playing FSX, will want to move to a simulator 5 years it's junior? A hell of a lot - and when you disregard their views on a small forum, just as I said before, it multiplies like nothing else and before you know it, that's a lot less sales of XP10..If I was the top dog in Laminar, I'd be content with people who share the same views as you, but I certainly would be playing more to the demands of the many other prospect customers who are on the edge whether or not to purchase XP10, to turn that potential customer into someone that has just deposited 80$ in my bank. And why should this be an issue for even yourself as well? Well, the more people playing XP10 means the higher demand for bug fixes, the higher demand of optimization of the game, the higher demand for new add-ons, cheaper add-ons, etc. So think carefully who you still want to 'feel free to return to FSX'.

...yet when the wider base checks in with comments and critics they are not accepted.

Reasonable comments and constructive criticism is fine. Unfortunately, the key players in this thread are just whining. Maybe if we ignored them then they'd get bored and go away.

Reasonable comments and constructive criticism is fine. Unfortunately, the key players in this thread are just whining. Maybe if we ignored them then they'd get bored and go away.

That sounds to me like a straightforward attempt to silence criticism and stifle debate. I don't agree with your views on the Seattle scenery, but nowhere did I say you were whining or tell you to go away.